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Originally Posted by host
Bill O'Rights, I suggest that you research the circumstances of the lawsuit against Diebold by the State of California that was settled for $2.6 million in Nov., 2004, and visit these sites to keep up to date on disclosures and controversies related to electronic "voting":
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The sentiment on this thread is a far cry from Jefferson's attitude, in a time when the citizenry had recently put down existing government via a violent revolution, that <b>government officials are scoundrels who must be intimidated by an angry, suspicious, volatile electorate with a reputation of being capable of a violent reaction, if provoked.</b>
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Host, we're a far cry from Jefferson's times. Jefferson was a guy who wrote a lot of pretty words that we continue to profess admiration for. However, a lot of things came before those writings, and he wrote a lot of other words that we would not hold in such esteem these days. In fact, the differences between today and the mid to late 18th century are profound - so marked as to lead me to believe that you are attempting to use Jefferson's words as a standard that people will flock to without ensuring that the comparison is apt.
First off, and this is the point that I've made that BOR agreed with, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin et al (with the possible exception of Hamilton) tried very hard to work
within the British system before tearing it down. They attempted
many constructive approaches towards reconciliation before initiating a revolution. This has not yet happened with the Bush administration. I'm hesitant to say this lest I initiate a threadjack, but consider for one second that the Democrats have not made even a paltry effort to investigate or impeach this administration. They've thrown a little mud, but there has been no serious, sustained effort. The Republicans managed better than this 8 years ago over a lie about a blowjob. If you want to change our country, start there. If you want to follow Jefferson's example, start there and work with it for
several decades. Only after exhausting all constructive avenues of reform is it even concievable to start talking about armed revolutions.
At any rate, Jefferson is not a great example to hold up when talking about military or violence as a political solution. He may have said that the tree of liberty must be refreshed by the blood of patriots, but he was talking about the French Revolution - and look where he ended up on that one. Jefferson's military contribution to the American Revolution was fleeing the capitol of Virginia while the British sacked it while he was governor. So if you want a standard-bearer, at least pick one in which the facts fit the case. I'd suggest Hamilton, but he was all for a strong federal government and powerful executive.
Hell, I'd make the argument that Truman's firing of MacArthur invited a more serious threat to our republic than George Bush. Only Truman's deft handling of the Joint Chief's of Staff prevented MacArthur from being a serious contender for the presidency. So, in terms of historical events, I've got to conclude that your opinions about the current administration are clouding your sense of context.
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Originally Posted by host
Look at <b>yourselves</b>....and your words here, in reaction to all that has taken place to undermine representative government, transparent, fair elections, your right to know the deliberations of an open and accountable government, and then tell me that I am wrong to advocate leaving this country as soon as possible. Do you really believe that your demeanor would change in time to counter current political trends, when you, even now, show know signs, with your nearly universal, blind faith in an election process that may no longer even exist?
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As for this, I don't think anyone has yet told you that you are wrong to advocate leaving this country. So far we've responded to the idea of "storming the palace" as you put it, and a few of us think that it isn't time to think of those options. I know you like to pin personal responsibility on people for the results of the opinions and voting, and I'm going to accept that. However, I'd rather stay here than leave the country - there is still time and there are still ways to effect change. It's not time to jump ship or throw the baby out with the bathwater.