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Old 02-20-2006, 08:25 PM   #50 (permalink)
Martian
Young Crumudgeon
 
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Location: Canada
Right, so here's how I see it.

Let me preface this by defining my beliefs as strong agnostic. Worded plainly this means that I believe that there may well be a higher power, but the nature of such a higher power is ultimately unknowable. Thus, any arguments I present are purely an outsider's perspective, as I don't follow any established religion.

Having said that :

The holocaust is a common example of God's failure to intervene. But there are a few salient points that can be used to debate this.

First off, He has been keeping a low profile for the last two thousand years or more, depending on who you talk to. He sent His only son to the cross for our sins, then He said 'okay, you have your proof. Junior died so that you could be reborn. Do with that what you will.' The reason for this is that He requires his followers to have faith. He wants us to love Him in all His glory not for what he can do for us, but for who He is and what He has done already. If I knew God existed, you can bet I would start praying. I would want to assure my place in heaven and I would want a few miracles of my own. A Christian will say that this is exactly why He doesn't make it obvious. In that case it's not a true love of God. It's just my own self-interest, which isn't what He wants.

He could've intervened in a very direct fashion (striking Hitler with a bolt of lightning or what have you), but if He did free will would ultimately be removed. We would no longer make the choice to follow Him because there would no longer be a choice to make.

Having said that, I suggest you talk to some holocaust survivors. I am sure there are a great many who will tell you they would not have survived but for the grace of God. He did not save the lives of 6 million. How many did He save? That question is by it's very nature unanswerable.

On top of that, everything has also served a greater plan. What is it that He intended us to learn from that history? What came out of the war that would not have occured if it didn't happen? A great many of the technological advances that greatly enhance our lives today are either direct or indirect consequences of that war. Where would our lives be today without it?

Another question that's ultimately unanswerable.

Now away from the form answers and onto my own personal beliefs.

My beliefs hinge on the idea of subjective morality. What is good or evil? Can you define it for me? If the Axis had won the war, do you think we would all be claiming today that the bad guys won?

History is always written by the victors.

Given that, my concept of good hinges on my own knowledge and experiences. It is a product of my upbringing and my past. It's a highly individual thing.

God (using the term for lack of a better one; take it to mean 'the higher power') does not have an upbringing as such and may have access to knowledge far beyond what any mortal man is capable of. Given that, is it so unreasonable to postulate that His idea of good and evil may be radically different from yours or mine?

You give your dog shots to protect her from illness. The dog doesn't know the benefit of the shots and only knows that they hurt. You think getting your dog immunized against illnesses is a good thing.

How do you think your dog feels about it?
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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

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