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Martian · 02-15-2006, 03:13 AM

Wow, it's been a while since I checked in here. First off, a big shout out to ducknutz, who has summarized my understanding of the whole situation in a much more concise (and educated) fashion.

Having said that, a rebuttal is in order.

samcol, I don't live under a rock. I am well aware that the world is not a nice place; corruption and scandal abound, even within the government of the United States of America. The system obviously doesn't work the way it was intended to when it was set up some 200 years ago.

But there's an order of magnitude between what happened during, for example, Watergate and what happened on September 11. Do I believe that your government hides things from you? Naturally I do. Mine does the same; some of it is necessary, some of it is the above mentioned corruption.

However, you are making a rather extraordinary claim.. I have yet to see that contended. There is a lot riding on the premise that your government would either allow or commit an attack on it's own people, on it's own soil. It presupposes a level of corruption, a level of callousness and a level of greed that most don't believe is there. The very fact that you still operate a government 'by the people, for the people' is evidence that the majority of Americans believe the system works; if they didn't, I can't believe it would still be in operation.

I have never claimed perfection on the part of your government. There's a reason I haven't immigrated. But being imperfect is a far cry from being evil.

As I have previously said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you want to make the claim that your own government is perpetrating large-scale attacks on it's own people and have that claim taken seriously, you do have to provide evidence and that evidence has to be reliable and trustworthy. A few grainy stills and questionable web sites don't cut it here. If something akin to the Watergate tapes surfaces on the issue, then I'll take notice. For the time being, I'll continue believing that the more reasonable explanation is the more likely one. I don't deny the possibility that what you say is true, but to me it seems like the less viable option. What is proposed in the official explanation is not only plausible, but actually quite likely, especially when taken in light that the people blamed in the official story have actually corroborated that story by claiming responsibility.

I do recognize the signifigance of the evidence you mention. Do you? Drills and exercises are circumstantial at best. Former plans could be damning, if they can be proven true, but even then are still not incontrovertible. They may lend credence to your side of things, but they prove nothing.

If you can provide your sources, I will most definitely check them out when I have the time available. Please note that free time is something I have precious little of lately, so it may be some time before I can properly review anything you put up here. But the other side of it is that until I see verifiable evidence of the claims made, they're only that. They are not fact until proven as such.

I will not be so presumptuous as to tell you what to believe. You are free to draw your own conclusions. I will present the other side of the debate if you bring the topic up for discussion, but I do not and will not present my arguments as the only possible explanation; they are merely, as I said, the most logical conclusions according to the evidence I have found.

I don't take kindly to being accused of being naive, or a fool. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

02-15-2006, 03:13 AM	#179 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Wow, it's been a while since I checked in here. First off, a big shout out to ducknutz, who has summarized my understanding of the whole situation in a much more concise (and educated) fashion. Having said that, a rebuttal is in order. samcol, I don't live under a rock. I am well aware that the world is not a nice place; corruption and scandal abound, even within the government of the United States of America. The system obviously doesn't work the way it was intended to when it was set up some 200 years ago. But there's an order of magnitude between what happened during, for example, Watergate and what happened on September 11. Do I believe that your government hides things from you? Naturally I do. Mine does the same; some of it is necessary, some of it is the above mentioned corruption. However, you are making a rather extraordinary claim.. I have yet to see that contended. There is a lot riding on the premise that your government would either allow or commit an attack on it's own people, on it's own soil. It presupposes a level of corruption, a level of callousness and a level of greed that most don't believe is there. The very fact that you still operate a government 'by the people, for the people' is evidence that the majority of Americans believe the system works; if they didn't, I can't believe it would still be in operation. I have never claimed perfection on the part of your government. There's a reason I haven't immigrated. But being imperfect is a far cry from being evil. As I have previously said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you want to make the claim that your own government is perpetrating large-scale attacks on it's own people and have that claim taken seriously, you do have to provide evidence and that evidence has to be reliable and trustworthy. A few grainy stills and questionable web sites don't cut it here. If something akin to the Watergate tapes surfaces on the issue, then I'll take notice. For the time being, I'll continue believing that the more reasonable explanation is the more likely one. I don't deny the possibility that what you say is true, but to me it seems like the less viable option. What is proposed in the official explanation is not only plausible, but actually quite likely, especially when taken in light that the people blamed in the official story have actually corroborated that story by claiming responsibility. I do recognize the signifigance of the evidence you mention. Do you? Drills and exercises are circumstantial at best. Former plans could be damning, if they can be proven true, but even then are still not incontrovertible. They may lend credence to your side of things, but they prove nothing. If you can provide your sources, I will most definitely check them out when I have the time available. Please note that free time is something I have precious little of lately, so it may be some time before I can properly review anything you put up here. But the other side of it is that until I see verifiable evidence of the claims made, they're only that. They are not fact until proven as such. I will not be so presumptuous as to tell you what to believe. You are free to draw your own conclusions. I will present the other side of the debate if you bring the topic up for discussion, but I do not and will not present my arguments as the only possible explanation; they are merely, as I said, the most logical conclusions according to the evidence I have found. I don't take kindly to being accused of being naive, or a fool. Please refrain from doing so in the future. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame