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Locobot · 02-09-2006, 11:46 AM

There seems to be a number of competing definitions of absolute in this thread. I think the main question here is whether there are moral absolutes which exist regardless of the situation. I argue that there are not. Absolutism is a feature of many religions and some philosophies. Its contrast is moral relativity which judges values by societal and situational characteristics.

There are simple examples that negate either position however. You might say that its absolutely immoral for a mother to kill her child (post birth) but there are situations that call for this, such as to preserve the health of others in the family (starvation/sacrifice). Interestingly the bible, which is the source text for many absolutist religions, includes a number of instances where the sacrifice of one's child is deemed necessary by God (who is "absolutely moral").

Moral relativism on the other hand puts us in the position of excusing cultural practices like cannibalism, childhood female circumcision, and slavery as immoral to us but moral to others. The only way around the acceptance of truly abhorent behavior that I can conceive of is to argue for a global moral community. Not an absolute global moral, but an interconnected web of cultures. There are no humans living today that do not at least know that there are others who do not live as they do. Therefore no culture is completely insulated from external moral influence and consequently judgement.

The math (an outgrowth of philosophy) examples above are interesting, but as has already been pointed out, they exist only when predicated on a great number of abstractions. Not that concepts like zero or inifinity don't have applicability in real life, but they don't actually exist as anything other than abstractions. Interestingly the ancient Greeks, who saw no difference between math and philosophy, had neither a concept of zero nor infinity. Although the pre-Socratic Zeno had a number of philosphical problems based around concepts of the infinite, he didn't extend those concepts mathematically. Aristotle had a number of proofs for why there was no infinity.

In physics there is a concept of absolute zero temperature at which all molecular activity ceases. To my knowledge though that state has never been reproduced in a laboratory (they've gotten within a degree) so it remains theoretical.

02-09-2006, 11:46 AM	#48 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	There seems to be a number of competing definitions of absolute in this thread. I think the main question here is whether there are moral absolutes which exist regardless of the situation. I argue that there are not. Absolutism is a feature of many religions and some philosophies. Its contrast is moral relativity which judges values by societal and situational characteristics. There are simple examples that negate either position however. You might say that its absolutely immoral for a mother to kill her child (post birth) but there are situations that call for this, such as to preserve the health of others in the family (starvation/sacrifice). Interestingly the bible, which is the source text for many absolutist religions, includes a number of instances where the sacrifice of one's child is deemed necessary by God (who is "absolutely moral"). Moral relativism on the other hand puts us in the position of excusing cultural practices like cannibalism, childhood female circumcision, and slavery as immoral to us but moral to others. The only way around the acceptance of truly abhorent behavior that I can conceive of is to argue for a global moral community. Not an absolute global moral, but an interconnected web of cultures. There are no humans living today that do not at least know that there are others who do not live as they do. Therefore no culture is completely insulated from external moral influence and consequently judgement. The math (an outgrowth of philosophy) examples above are interesting, but as has already been pointed out, they exist only when predicated on a great number of abstractions. Not that concepts like zero or inifinity don't have applicability in real life, but they don't actually exist as anything other than abstractions. Interestingly the ancient Greeks, who saw no difference between math and philosophy, had neither a concept of zero nor infinity. Although the pre-Socratic Zeno had a number of philosphical problems based around concepts of the infinite, he didn't extend those concepts mathematically. Aristotle had a number of proofs for why there was no infinity. In physics there is a concept of absolute zero temperature at which all molecular activity ceases. To my knowledge though that state has never been reproduced in a laboratory (they've gotten within a degree) so it remains theoretical.