PastorTim

Hello Guthmund,

No apology necessary.

I guess if you're not really arguing for or against anything, no point in "arguing!" LOL

I will say that I agree to a point that it's impossible to definitely prove or disprove anything with regards to religion. Although with religion I think it's easier to prove / disprove things. I don't have much use for religion.

When it comes to my relationship with God through Jesus Christ, I can and should certainly do what I can to share with you to the best of my ability. The Word of God directs --

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. 1 Peter 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

I should NOT try to be a jerk!

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Even if I'm as nice as I can be, sometimes I'm going to suffer for it, BUT -- and here's a key to sharing concerning my relationship --

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I need to make sure I maintain as good a relationship with the Lord as I can, and then do my best to share what and how I understand my faith to be, with a proper attitude before Him and other men.

And I try to remember, He directs me to give you an ANSWER, but not necessarily satisfaction. You may not like my answer, though I should try to take care I don't do something to purposely cause you to dislike me or the answer I give. In fact, my attitude towards you should hopefully help gain me a hearing.

But whether or not my answer satisfies you, that's not for me to say. God is the One Who does the saving, working in the heart of those His Word works in. Whether it works in or not, it certainly is never wasted when I share it --

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Clearly, I am to leave the results to Him. And I must trust Him, regardless of what happens. He is ultimately keeping the accounts --

1 Peter 3:16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

No matter what happens to me, it doesn't give me the right to act anyway I please, even if in the flesh I'd sure like to give you a good punch in the nose [and I don't mean YOU but just in general -- hey, I'm a people, and sometimes people get hurt feelings and sometimes we get angry, etc.].

Nevertheless, what I am to try to do is follow the example of Christ Jesus my Lord --

1 Peter 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

And if I yield to Him, He will enable me to do so --

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is]. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Yes, I suppose that's a crux of most matters "religious." I believe God's Word is sufficient, and that's the perspective and level I'll interact with others on. The world is replete with many who do not believe.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I realize that's not likely to persuade some. But I also believe a person can have a "reasonable" and "reasoned" faith. Some may test it. Ok. If my faith can't be tested, it can't be trusted. And, I don't believe I'm going to be judged by God by what others believe or did. I'll have my hands full being judged by what I did with my faith and knowledge since coming to Christ! -- Truth is: Christians are not perfect, but we are forgiven. And for that I am thankful.

Clearly, I came into the middle of some of this, and so perhaps some of my comments were counter-productive to the original thread. Sorry to be a distraction, if I was.

I would respectfully disagree. When Jesus died on the cross, he declared, "It is finished" -- John 19:30 -- and I take that to mean that all that was necessary for the propitiation of our sin, guilt and shame was done at the cross. It is paid in full. In John 3:16 the Bible plainly declares -- John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. In 2 Corinthians 9:15 Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift.

So to emphasize for a moment, God gives freely, and Jesus is a gift. A gift is usually received, and we show bad manners if we don't at least acknowledge it with a thank you. You are right. God asks us to "repent and believe the Gospel" but I suppose I disagree with the tenor of the way you portray it. If there's an exchange, it certainly isn't even.

And I'll grant you some of what you say about "to some it is nothing." I often proclaim the fact that while I belive the Bible teaches "free grace" to sinners, free does NOT equal cheap grace. Our salvation cost God His best. We are not free to do with it as we please. But I don't suppose that was the point you were making.

Christ's sacrifice was sufficient -- 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

His sacrifice blotted out our sins -- Colossians 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So the "infinite offense" being satisfied can not be applied to you until you ask to have it applied to you -- John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well, I mean no disrespect but it does seem to me that you are trying to present what God requires according to His Word as some kind of outrageous demand.

I suppose we could say as you do, "It's easy to be seen as benevolent when you make all the rules." But God's desire was to -- Romans 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

And this balance could only be accomplished through the sacrifice of Christ. I say only because in God's Wisdom that was what was determined from the foundation of the world. -- Revelation 13:8 ...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God is gracious to allow people to believe or not in this life. Most of life teaches actions have consequences. It is no different in the Spiritual realm. But still for all that God has done if your desire is to reject Him, He will still be gracious to you -- Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

You say, "Good discussion. I've confused it a bit...but good, nonetheless"

I suppose it's good if it helps bring some to faith, or helps some examine their faith. I certainly hopes no one feels judged by me. That's not my place. I'm simply trying to share what I believe the Bible teaches. At some point, for those who hear the Word, they will have to decide whether to confront the teaching / allow it to confront them. They can accept it or reject it. It won't change what is true.

I simply hope for some it will change there relationship to the One Who declared Himself to be "the way, the truth, and the life."

Along the way, I'm sure I can learn some things from other points of view.

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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour