PastorTim

I must confess I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for, or against. And I mean no disrespect in saying that. It's possible I missed something by coming in at the end here. I'm sure I have because you're seem to be quite strong in what your expressing. So forgive me if I have.

But right here you seem to suggest that God / His Word isn't a reputable source? If God is the Creator of all, and if He is the one who holds the "key" / entrance to Heaven / Hell, then why isn't "Because God said so" sufficient?

Now whether a person believes that is another argument, yes? But that is the basis I'm approaching this from, and you seem to be, so...

The Bible begins with a presupposition: "In the beginning, God..." It presupposes He was there before anything else. And pretty much everything else comes from that presupposition. [Gen. 1-11 is a necessary foundation to understand most everything else in the Bible.]

And that seems to me to be the reason so many try to do away with God. No God, no one to be responsible to except for yourself.

So I frankly reject the notion that God isn't a reputable source for absolute truth. I believe the Bible declares that it is His Heaven, His salvation, His eternity, and He can set the rules and limitations in any way, manner, shape or form He pleases.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Frankly, the consistent message of the Bible is that there has always been only one way to approach God: His. Revelation has been "progressive" -- that is, given over time until the full revelation came, a completed Bible. Not that it had to be complete from His perspective -- Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. -- But from ours.

The Bible is pretty clear: Jesus is the sacrifice for sin. Pointed towards and pictured in the Old Testament, proclaimed as such in the New.

That's precisely the point of -- 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So again, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for or against.

True. Which is why God gave the world a gift of love -- John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He didn't need to come and condemn the world, He needed to come and "save" the world -- John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

As you point out, salvation is an offer, man can choose it or not. -- John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What is the purpose of the law? -- Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

However -- Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God remains just in punishing sin through the Cross -- Colossians 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; -- So that He can justify all who believe.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish or point out here. There's no inconsistency. "Sin" is established in Paul's argument, followed by the notion of just penalty for the same -- along with God's gracious gift of salvation to all who believe -- Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The whole point of the passage which begins with Rom. 3:10 is to prove we are all sinners [through v.18 or so].

Well, I suppose technically you can't. But that's the net effect of not accepting God's gracious offer of salvtation through the Cross. You pay for your sin forever in hell.

Yes, and? God never intended the law to be that which permanently satisfied His holy demands. It was always Jesus -- 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No, I don't think you are. Because while the complete redemption of all has not yet been accomplished, that is what we are looking forward to -- Romans 8:17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Eventually -- a while in the future! -- we get to a new heaven and a new earth. And that is all part and parcel of Jesus death, burial and resurrection -- in God's plan and economy to rid His Creation of all vestiges of sin. Not now, but in His time.

Salvation as applied to the sinner comes in three "tenses" or "phases" -- 2 Corinthians 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, [PAST TENSE, our "justification," which happens the moment we are born again] and doth deliver: [PRESENT TENSE, our "sanctification, which is worked out from the moment we are born again until...] in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; [FUTURE TENSE, our "glorification"]

Yes. That is the consistent message of the Bible. Man sinned. God saves. Man doesn't deserve it, can't earn it or pay for it. God offers it freely -- not that it didn't cost Him something. It's a very valuable "thing," salvation, bought at a high price -- the precious blood of Jesus, 1 Pet. 1:19 above.

[Although it's really not a "thing" but a Who.]

But that is how He provides it to us "free" -- paid in full.

I don't know. Are you suggesting that after God's done all the work and paid all the price, allowing us to ask for forgiveness is an outrageous demand?

And I mean no disrespect to what you're trying to argue, for or against. I suppose it might help if you could give me a bit of a refresher just what it is you're trying to prove or disprove. I think this discussion might seem a bit more fruitful if I was on the same page as you, but I'm afraid I'm not. Sorry. [Ironic. Because in many respects we do seem to be on the same page. But I think I'm clearly missing something.]

I never have liked this verse being applied to a context of salvation, or the offer of salvation to sinners. I don't believe the context of Rev. 3 allows for it.

Blessings.

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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour