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xepherys · 01-18-2006, 10:05 PM

I'm too tired to read everyon'e responses, so I'll post first and reread later. Frankly, the statements quoted by the OP are flawed on so many levels it's silly. Also, these are out of order, my apologies.

1. There is no "proof" that the universe had a beginning, will have an end or any other such finite component. Until this is fact, everything relating to this is a theory at best.

2. The last comment about energy... you even had it right at the beginning... "usable energy". Remember that just about everything has some potential energy. Plants have tons of potential energy... we usually see them as calories. Fruits especially. These are caused, in part, by the consumption of energy (primarily from the sun, but also from other "digestive" measures of the plant) into the plant itself. When we drill up oil, we burn it off in cars or power plants. This energy is released as electricity, heat and motion. Electricity is used to power other things that all, to some degree or another, generate heat. Heat itself is energy. Motion is also energy. That energy is then transferred into other things. In essence, just because we can't harness the energy of our own momentum or the energy of our electrical offcast does not mean the energy does not exist.

3. I'm still trying to get past the first three numbers listed. Why does one assume 1 and 2 and therfore derive 3? "Whatever had a beginning had a cause"... why? Just because we do not have examples doesn't mean anything. Hell, we don't even understand gravity still, and it's a primary part of what makes our world work right. "The universe had a beginning"... this was covered in my #1.

Also, scientists didn't discover new information that means the universe MUST have a beginning... though more of them believe it is likely it did. There are also those, including Stephen Hawking, that believe it may have infinite expand/collapse periods. perhaps the energy created simply loops time...? Sound silly? Doesn't mean it isn't so.

Trying to use science to prove the existance of god, any god, IMHO is a moot argument. Yes, there are Christian scientists... yes, they may not be mutually exclusive. I believe both quite probably exist (science could be made up by humans to explain things that are actually divine). Also, there is an assumption that god is eternal, infinite, omnipotent and/or omnipresent. Why? What proof is there of this? In fact, until recently (in the big picture) most deities were born out of some form of chaos, or titans or who knows what. It's pretty much only modern religions that believe in an omnipresent god that has been around forever and will continue on as such.

Just food for thought.

01-18-2006, 10:05 PM	#42 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I'm too tired to read everyon'e responses, so I'll post first and reread later. Frankly, the statements quoted by the OP are flawed on so many levels it's silly. Also, these are out of order, my apologies. 1. There is no "proof" that the universe had a beginning, will have an end or any other such finite component. Until this is fact, everything relating to this is a theory at best. 2. The last comment about energy... you even had it right at the beginning... "usable energy". Remember that just about everything has some potential energy. Plants have tons of potential energy... we usually see them as calories. Fruits especially. These are caused, in part, by the consumption of energy (primarily from the sun, but also from other "digestive" measures of the plant) into the plant itself. When we drill up oil, we burn it off in cars or power plants. This energy is released as electricity, heat and motion. Electricity is used to power other things that all, to some degree or another, generate heat. Heat itself is energy. Motion is also energy. That energy is then transferred into other things. In essence, just because we can't harness the energy of our own momentum or the energy of our electrical offcast does not mean the energy does not exist. 3. I'm still trying to get past the first three numbers listed. Why does one assume 1 and 2 and therfore derive 3? "Whatever had a beginning had a cause"... why? Just because we do not have examples doesn't mean anything. Hell, we don't even understand gravity still, and it's a primary part of what makes our world work right. "The universe had a beginning"... this was covered in my #1. Also, scientists didn't discover new information that means the universe MUST have a beginning... though more of them believe it is likely it did. There are also those, including Stephen Hawking, that believe it may have infinite expand/collapse periods. perhaps the energy created simply loops time...? Sound silly? Doesn't mean it isn't so. Trying to use science to prove the existance of god, any god, IMHO is a moot argument. Yes, there are Christian scientists... yes, they may not be mutually exclusive. I believe both quite probably exist (science could be made up by humans to explain things that are actually divine). Also, there is an assumption that god is eternal, infinite, omnipotent and/or omnipresent. Why? What proof is there of this? In fact, until recently (in the big picture) most deities were born out of some form of chaos, or titans or who knows what. It's pretty much only modern religions that believe in an omnipresent god that has been around forever and will continue on as such. Just food for thought.