Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martinguerre
will, Son of God may not mean 2nd person of the trinity. the Psalms refer to human kings that way. they're also annointed, and thus messiahs. for the greco-romans in the audience, Augustus uses a similar title. kingship and being the son of God is a long standing tradition in the area. what does Jesus mean by it? I think he meant he was the Messiah. Does that make him the 2nd Godhead? That's a far more difficult move to make from scripture...
|
What about the verse from above? Here's the whole passage: "Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathred around Him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered,
"I did tell you, but you do not believe. The mericles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall not perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Jesus knows that He is one with God the Father, and thus He is God. I see that as being clear.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martinguerre
to claim that an observant Jew would not claim to be the messiah is just not correct. several others claimed just that, and led jewish movements and uprisings in that time. at that point, you have to be Jewish to claim to be messiah, since messiah is a title and term defined by jewish tradition.
|
Again, I have to say that Chrstianity DID blossom from Judism. I know that. I know that Christianity could be considered a sect Judism, in fact. Because the word and idea of the messiah were Jewish does not mean that Jesus was not Christian. HOWEVER there is a main difference between those who consider themselves Jews and Christians (except for the Jews for Jesus, I love those guys): Judism now, in 2005 = Jesus was a prophet, Christianity now, in 2005 = Jesus was the messiah prophesized in the old testemant. Bearing that in mind...Jesus believe that He was the messiah from the old testemant, and that not only was He the son of God, but He was a part of God.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martinguerre
"An observant Jew wouldn't contradict the pharisees"
Except a whole lot of other observant first century Jews.
/more evidence
|
You got me there. I was incorrect.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martinguerre
and you're right...you are talking about what the church has taught for a long time. but they didn't initially...and it's pretty easy to prove. Christian first shows up in a bastardized form in a letter from one roman adminstrator to another, complaining about the followers of Chrispus (i'm not sure on the transliteration there but it's close). Acts talks of the people who follow "the way" and Paul speaks of those "in Christ." But niether of them think of that as being over and against a conceptual Judiasm.
|
It's not a matter of for or against. Christianity isn't 'against' Judism. (warning, I'm pretty sure the following is really blasphemus, but I'm trying my best to make a valid comparison...bear with me) Imagine that you work at McDonalds. When you first start working there, some people talk about how some day you'll make a bigger, better burger. A new guy comes along and makes a Whopper on his first day. Some people follow him, and some don't. Some people think his burger is the burger of ledgend, some think it's still coming. The Whopper maker claims that McDonalds is heading in a wrong direction and that Burger King is the way to go. Some people follow and learn how to make a Whopper. Some resent what they see as disrespect against McDonalds. He's then fired (crucified). The people who prefer the whopper start to grow and spread the word of the whopper. He starts his own resturant. Now, wasn't this guy the first Burger King? Couldn't you call him the King of Burger Kings? (sorry, I coulnd't resist) This guy, though at first working at McDonalds, introduced the world to the Whopper. All of his followers worked at what would some day become Burger King. McDonalds still continues on, waiting some day for the big new burger to come along. Burger King believes that the Whopper was that burger. I would again argue that the guy who made the first Whopper was the first Burger King.
This is a discussion of definition. What does "Christian" mean? Does it mean follower of Christ? Does it mean those who believe that Jesus Christ was the only son of God, and was God Himself? Does it mean a sect of Judism ivolving a prophet?
Until we can settle on the meaning of the word "Christian", we can't close this discsussion.