Originally Posted by Lebell

Host, I will do something I will likely never do again: take the time to respond point for point to your posts and questions.



I agree that this is one post that illuminates the gulf, but its relevance eludes me.



Here is one of the reasons I have stopped responding. “That thread I linked was sidetracked by your posts”.

I find your claim that I “sidetracked” the thread to be outrageous. I posted something that directly related to the case, but because it did not follow the original poster’s assumption that a crime was committed, you call it “sidetrack(ing)”. I am very aware of the power of words and I strongly suspect you are doing exactly what you bemoan, i.e., putting your own spin on stories and words for the benefit of your own arguments. Do I blame you? No. We all do it. But when I call into question the basic assumption, you act hurt and attacked, or you call it “sidetracking” or call sources into question, blah blah blah.

The fact is that what I posted was VERY relevant, you just didn’t like it. It called into question the basic assumption of that a crime was committed, which contrary to what you may think, I still haven’t seen you post strong evidence that it has, nor that my basic article was faulty. All you did post was that the writers were conservative and somewhat attention whorish. If it helps, I will concede that point. But IMO, no one ever did adequately disprove the points they raised. And last time I checked, being an attention whore was not a crime.



Your assumptions about me and others amaze me at times. Do you wonder that I find it insulting that a) because I don’t agree with your voluminous postings that I don’t’ “inventory” my political opinions or that b) you are any less influenced by the venom they post at moveon.org?

Again, I think the truth is that you are amazed that after all the “evidence” you produce, all from “msm”, that not everyone is on your bandwagon. That we are not, can only be ascribed to some mental deficiency, “sheeple” tendencies, or propaganda brain washing. The other possibility, that the truth is probably somewhere in between and that you yourself may be suffering from a case of leftist propaganda doesn’t even occur to you.

Again, if it helps, I’ll concede that these days I tend to give more weight to conservative talking points than liberal ones. Can you admit the opposite?



You’re right in saying that I brought up your ersatz article, but if you also recall, it was as an example of what I consider to be a history of hit and miss sources you use in bolstering your claims. I have spent time in the past going through your posts and hunting down your sources and exposing their bias (which ironically, you are trying to hammer me on with Plame), but your only response was to pile on more. You also have had (less lately) a nagging tendency to take blogs and op-eds as Gospel. To me, you have shown that you do not really care about “truth” so much as being some corner doomsday crier and as such, can be safely ignored.

This is the danger, because some of what you say is very important, but unfortunately, the messenger is turning off the ears of the “sheeple” with the apparent and I mean apparent unreasoning hatred of the Republicans.

As to the “Toensing referrals”, I have nothing to apologize for. I cannot even believe you are equating them with a bogus website article you posted in your rush to pile on “irrefutable” proof of wrongdoing.



Another point of irritation with me. WTF do the Southern Baptists have to do with the Republicans or our conversation? I personally think it is another way you spin your web arguments, as if somehow mentioning their history of supporting slavery will install some repugnance in the reader which you can then attach to the current question at hand. You know what? They have no relevance to the conversation and again, I think you are practicing the same spin you decry.


Finally something we agree on. Of course, I don’t find your reporting or stance any more “fair and balanced” than that which you decry.

You are a one note Johnny, and you need to realize it.


Finally, something we can talk about. Of course, this goes back to previous points; the party in power is no different than any other party that has been in power. All the “outrage” you have shown, and all the articles that you have posted, has been seen before, as has the corruption. Yet somehow we manage to chug along. You still haven’t ever shown me anything that makes me worry about the direction of our country. Oh, I worry about things like the next person, and I wonder how they will work out, but I am actually pretty optimistic. And the reason is, because I study history and I see that these times are no diffent from any other times, that is, that we are plagued by those who would take power and abuse it.



The cute “Jim Jones” reference aside, another poor assumption on your part, not to mention the “spin” with the Southern Baptists.

Let’s settle this once and for all.

1) I am not a Democrat, yet I voted for Clinton.
2) I am not a Republican, yet I voted for Bush.
3) I am more of an Independent with a libertarian bent.
4) I do not support slavery or the Southern Baptists. Quit mentioning them.
5) I do not support everything the Republicans do, nor do I decry everything the Democrats do. To use party as the demarcation instead of studying the issues intelligently to make a decision is the height of foolishness.



Again, it’s an annoying thing to see you throw several things together that have no connection and say, “See, see?? How can you support this???” But I’m willing to untangle them this once.

1) War in Iraq.

My God, yet again, we talk about this. Here is my position, which you can quote or link as much as you like. The war was right because a) Saddam was an evil megalomaniac mass murder who b) showed no hesitation to start wars in the region and c) had a distinct liking of WMD’s. He also d) repeatedly ignored UN sanctions and e) shot at coalition planes, that in itself an act of war. Need me to admit that we didn’t find any? Ok. Can you admit that the UN report said that he had several “dual purpose” facilities that. Need me to admit that Bush “lied”? No, sorry. I agree that it’s possible, but I also see that it was probably bad data. Need me to admit that Bush “sold us” the war? Sure. That’s what all leaders do. (queue Hitler quotes). But yes, I support the general idea of our going to war in Iraq.

2) $95 billion tax bill.

Sorry, not read up on it.

3) Debt growing.

No, I don’t like this. I am actually kind of pissed about it. I did like the fact that Clinton balanced the budget, but I didn’t like the fact that he gutted the military to do it. Is that enough rage?

4) Iraq festers.

Sorry, but I actually think we’re doing a damn good job. Amazed? Knowing the history of the region, and knowing the history of warfare, I think we can pull this one off…IF we don’t let people like you convince us to cut and run, leaving the job half done and leaving every crack pot insurgency group to fight over the crumbs.

5) N.O. rots

More of your spin…as if Bush is responsible for N.O. Oh sure, he could have set up FEMA better, but do we really need to bash this dead horse again? Face it, I disagree with your basic premise that Bush shoulders the majority of responsibility for the NO response. Show me how you’ve talked about the responsibility of the LA legislature, or even NO’s mayor, or how the levees were badly designed and then we can talk about Bush’s share of blame.



grrr grrr and grrr again.

I will state one last time that I think it is [b]you[b] that obfuscate the issues, that of how to get viable third party candidates elected, that of how to eliminate government waste and pork barrel spending, that of accountability for all politicians regardless of party, with your monotonous attack on the Republicans.

I never bought into the “contract with America” (again, keep for future linkage), but neither am I buying into what you are trying to sell.


Finally, I have wasted approximately an hour of my day responding to you, whom I do not see any chance of changing your mind and opinion. I did so because I am tired of your constant misrepresentation of my views. Was it worth it? I doubt it. Again, I have no doubt that you are retired or on disability, which would allow you the several hours a day it must take you to research, read, assemble, and post your material. I also don't doubt that few of our other members do not have this time, so I am putting on my mod hat when I say this: it is not your place to decry the discussion, nor to try to direct it the direction you would like. All our members are free to post in the forums so long as they follow forum rules. Also, all of our mods are people as well. That means that they have their personal predjuces, and feelings and sometimes they can get carried away. I am painfully aware that I am not exempt. But I am also mighty damn proud of our crew of volunteers for the way they try to evenly apply the rules for a usually thankless task.