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Old 12-08-2005, 12:47 PM   #86 (permalink)
longbough
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Location: Northern California
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Carrying a gun is not a right, it is a privilege because not everyone is allowed to carry a gun. (Mental illness, or past mental problems, felons, and so on).
Thanks for your input. I appreciate hearing your views.

But I don't understand that line of reasoning. How does the restriction of firearms among the mentally ill and felons make the case that firearms possession is not my right as a law-abiding citizen?

Felons and mentally ill are restricted from owning guns, but, they are restricted from voting as well.

If your argument rests on the notion of gun ownership as a "privilege" then what you say should hold for the act of voting as a "privilege" well.

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Whether gun ownership is a "right" or "privilege" is a point of contention on which you and I will not, realistically, agree. It doesn't matter what argument I might introduce because it's just a fundamental difference between our views.

Truly productive discourse requires that involved parties share common premises. If the premises are fundamentally dissimilar then the remainder of discussion is pointless - and will amount to little more than "yes it is"/"no it isn't" exchange. In other words, we just disagree and I'd rather spare us both from having to argue that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
My point is unless you actually LIVE in SF, you really can't expect someone to go in there and sue them because the citizens of that city made a choice.

That is a serious problem in the US. People complain about the ACLU and trying to take the 10 Commandments out of a courthouse, yet they believe it is ok for the NRA to sue a city because of gun issues.
A discussion about lawsuits filed is a separate issue.
But don't be quick to assume that people who oppose the principle of a gun ban also complain about the ACLU. That's a dangerous stereotype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
I'm sure if you live in SF and have a gun in your house they aren't going to bust your for it. Nor do I think if you are driving down the road and have your UNLOADED gun in the trunk or out of physical reach as you drive to Oakland or a suburb with a shooting range they'll do anything to you.
Are you insinuating that I, as a law-abiding citizen, should have no qualms about violating the law in this regard? ...or that I can be assured that I should not worry about arrest if caught under those circumstances? That's a bold and dangerous assumption by all standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
But it sounds to me like the citizens of SF have decided they do not wish to have guns in their community (in public). So let the voters have their voice...
As I said before - I'm not against the democratic process. I do not live in SF proper - but is it not my "right" to voice an opinion about the effecacy of such a ban?

I would also voice outrage about state laws that criminalize sodomy - I don't have to live in that state to have an opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
...if it fails and there are more violent crimes and guns used by bad guys ..... then their experiment failed.
What happens then? Does the law just ... go away? will it be repealed? I'm not sure that would happen. If that were the case I wouldn't be as passionately concerned. But laws of this type rarely work in the other direction. I fear an increase in violent crime will be, paradoxically, interpreted as a rationale for applying even more strict control measures. Take a look at Washington D.C.

I fear a no-win situation for law abiding, responsible gun-owners (yes, many of us do exist).
If violent crime decreases - stronger laws will go into effect.
If violent crime increases - stronger laws will go into effect (conceivably with the rationale that guns from surrounding counties must be banned as well).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
But the citizens should have the right. Like I said above, it's the same as smoking, abortion, same sex marriage, etc. The community should be able to decide and vote their wills.
Maybe you and I differ in this respect. A majority can be wrong when it promotes legislation that selectively affects a minority in an adverse and unfair way. No doubt, advocates of anti-sodomy laws have little or no personal interest in the matter, but exercise their right to criminalize it in vote. That doesn't make it right IMO.

A law against "sodomy" is still wrong in my book regardless of the major opinion in the community. Pure democracy practiced in a vacuum isn't a flawless or even effective mechanism.

As one of many law-abiding gun owners I feel as if I'm a part of a similar minority whose position is in danger of being quashed by the opinion of the voting majority (who aren't directly affected by blind-comprehensive gun bans).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Yet, when a state like Texas votes to ban gay marriage that is ok and people who fight saying that is prejudicial are crybabies and leftist pigs?
This has nothing to do with the gun-ban issue unless you think that people, like myself, actually hold those views.

Let's not reduce the entire issue to a matter of right vs. left. That would be unfair to the issue at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Neither of those groups are right. The voters who live and work in those communities and know the areas and are there daily..... they are the ones who should determine what goes on, not big self serving organizations.
Point taken.
Perhaps we're just focused on different ends of the subject, despite some overlapping discussion.

Last edited by longbough; 12-08-2005 at 12:52 PM..
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