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Old 12-07-2005, 12:57 AM   #150 (permalink)
Martian
Young Crumudgeon
 
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Location: Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I'm not sure what the difference is between the two things you list here.

I deleted my posts because I was embarrassed by what I'd said there. That's probably more the second one.
The difference goes a bit like this. If you're deleting them because you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, you're doing it for someone else. You're thinking that what you've said may be harmful to others, recognizing that and remedying it. If you're doing it because of what we may think of you, it's a bit different. You're second-guessing yourself and can't decide if you're saying the right things, so you decide that it's better not to say anything at all. It's a bit like what happened with Dr. KGB when she approached you, only slightly different because with a posted message you can go back and erase what you've already said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I don't want my whole identity to be defined by my relationship to them, and it isn't. I'm an excellent teacher, and I have an active presense here. Those parts of my life are mine.

I do want to define myself in part by my relationship to them. Grace's wife and Sissy's sister are both important parts of my identity, thos are things I'm proud of, and I don't want to give that up.

I am happy with the part of my life that involves Grace and don't want to be independent from her. It's only the part of my life where I have to be assertive on my own that I have problems, and that's the part that I want to work on improving.
I agree that you don't want or need to be completely independent of her. And ultimately, it comes down to what I've said before; if you're happy with where you are then you don't need to change anything. But I get the feeling that you're not.

You have parts of your life that are your own and parts that aren't. Everybody does, there's no way that Grace can be involved in every aspect of everything you do at all times. But the problem comes outside of those situations when you feel like you can't manage without her. I don't think you want to depend on Grace the way you do. It's okay to give yourself to her, but you have to have your own strength as well. Is that a bit more clear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
Do you think that my dependence on Grace for protection and support is part of what's caused me to be so ineffectual on my own?
In short, yes. I'm not saying you can't depend on Grace. As John Donne so eloquently put it, "no man is an island, entire of itself...". You should absolutely have people in your life who can lend you strength when you don't have enough of your own. But when she's always protecting you, when you can't function unto yourself, it becomes too much. You start relying on her totally and have trouble doing things without her. You have your areas where you're confident, but that you have trouble asking for directions on your own... well, I see that as a problem. I think that you're asking for help means you agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I'll ask Grace tomorrow. Sissy wasn't at the party, it was faculty and spouses only. However, I have run most of this by Sissy, and she's been helping me with some exercises she picked up in therapy and in Al Anon.
When I mentioned Sissy, I meant in a more general sense. She doesn't sound like she has any problem standing on her own feet. The party is a good example, but there are likely other situations where Grace and Sissy are able to do things alone that you can't. They have that ability to approach people with confidence and assertiveness that you don't seem to have right now. It's in you and you can use them to help bring it out. Find out what they do that you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I think you must be confused about something, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Grace isn't a member here and doesn't read or post here. I can show her this if that would help, though.
I was confused and I apologize. I was operating under the impression that Grace had an account here; I'm not sure where that came from. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. In any case, whether or not you show this to Grace is your decision. I certainly don't think it would hurt anything for her to know where and how you're getting support, aside from her and Sissy. And she may be able to help you interpret the things said here and put them to work for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I do have a question, though. Isn't getting help from Grace and Sissy being more dependent on them, not less? I'm fine with that if it'll help, but earlier you seemed to imply that my dependence on Grace was part of what was holding me back, and now you suggest I go to her for help, when I was trying to do it without her help before. I'm confused.
Again, i'm going to try to clear this up. It's absolutely okay for them to help you. They may be able to offer insights that I don't have and that is going to be invaluable. You have to remember that even though I may seem to have a good handle on the situation, I don't really know you. I don't know anything about you except what you've chosen to give me; I have an incomplete picture. The picture that Grace and Sissy use is much more complete, therefore they may be able to see certain issues and motives in the things you do that I can't. Also, they're using the tools that you're not and just as we can help you to figure out how to use them, so can they.

You can accept support from them and help from them. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with anything you're doing, for that matter, except that you want to change the way you feel. It ultimately comes down to you; it's up to you whether or not you're happy with who you are and if you're not it's up to you to change. Everyone can offer you assistance in doing that, but it's ultimately you who's doing the work here. Using Grace and Sissy as sounding boards and sources of insight isn't the same thing is relying on them to do this for you, because ultimately they simply can't.

Let me know if you need me to clarify that further and I'll try.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
This is almost identical to something Sissy has had me doing for most of the past week. It's had little effect so far, but I know I saw it work for her when she first started high school (with a different issue in her case).
This is what I'm referring to above. You're taking Sissy's advice and experience and using it to help you make the changes you want. Sissy can tell you your positive traits until her face turns blue, but she can't make you believe it. You're the only one with that power. It doesn't mean she can't help you find the ability.

As an aside, I can't put into words how happy I am that you have Sissy. I know I've said this before about both Grace and Sissy, but I don't think I can mention it enough. What you have there is incredibly powerful and it's going to make this journey easier for you by an order of magnitude. They both deserve a world of credit, as do you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
I don't care about beautiful or funny. I know I'm not, but I don't have a distorted image of those things, nor do they bother me. I know I'm average looking, and I know I'm a bit dull, but I'm actually pretty cool with that, as being better looking or more entertaining aren't really goals that are important to me. I don't think if I were beautiful and funny it would make me happier than I am now.
Don't sell yourself short. You truly are beautiful. I'm sure if we ask them, all the men and a great many of the women of TFP will line up behind me to say the same. So will Grace and so will Sissy. So will Dr. KGB and all the men who were flirting with you at the party.

It's important that you see that, too. Thinking of yourself as plain is just another symptom of your lacking the confidence you want. I don't know a lot about your personality, I used funny as an example. I do know that you strike me as sincere, kind, honest and hardworking. All of these are positive qualities you possess and it's going to help you immensely to believe in yourself if you can see them. When you have a negative thought, you'll be able to come up with a positive counter. "So what if people think it's strange that I collect comics? I know that I'm intelligent and beautiful and if they can't look past a hobby of mine to see that, it's their loss."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
However, I have been doing this with confident and assertive, and though it hasn't made a difference yet, I'm hopeful that it will.
It will. It takes time, but it will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
That makes sense. Androphobia is another thing I've been working on. I've gotten past the hating men part of it, but the fear of men part still lingers. I carry a cell phone at all times.
None of this is going to be easy. I wish I could tell you it would, but that would be a lie and I think we both know it. The key is going to be recognizing the negative or harmful thoughts and being able to counter them with positive and helpful ones. Eventually you'll gain the confidence you want and the negative ones will be highly diminished. I'm coming up with as many examples of positive thoughts as I can think of, but this is by no means an exclusive list. This, again, is why I've suggested going to Grace and Sissy. They'll be able to help you find those positives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
The last one. Grace is tall, very strong for a woman, and a highly skilled martial artist. She's only had to physically intervene on my behalf once, but boy howdy did the guy who had his hands on me in an aggresive manner live to regret that. The guy who felt me up in a hobby store a couple of months back would also have regretted it greatly had he done it with Grace nearby, though I seriously doubted he'd have done so. I have no doubt of my physical safety when she's nearby.
Precisely. When Grace is around, you feel protected. You know that you have a way out, so the nervousness disappears. This is what I'm trying to show you; if you always have a way out you won't have to be so nervous when you're approaching men. At first you'll have to consciously stop and develop an exit strategy, but eventually it will become as much second nature as the threat assessment you're already doing.

I'm sure I've recommended it before, but I'm going to do so again in case I haven't; try looking into a self-defence course. What I'm saying right now is actually a small part of a women's self-defence course that an old friend of mine taught. He was a champion martial artist (I can't remember which discipline right now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
Ok I'm trying to say this without arguing.

Certain interactions operate the same way the vast majority of the time. For example eating in a restaurant. You enter, the host seats you, a server takes your order, brings you your food, you eat, you pay, you leave. That's the way it almost always works. That's what I mean by a script.

I was about to say we all do that all of the time with all kinds of interactions, but maybe that's my problem, the assumption that that's the way everyone does it. Is there not one standard way of getting food in a restaurant, or paying for groceries at the grocery store, or renting a movie, etc. that most people follow? Or does everyone do it differently, and I've been expecting others to just follow my script unreasonably?

I hadn't considered that before, the idea that there is no standard way of doing things. Damn, that's a scary concept.
Definitely argue if you think there's a flaw in what I'm saying. I want you to understand fully everything that I say. I will be very forthright and tell you that there is nothing that you can do or say right now that will insult me or cause me to think poorly of you; you're learning as you go and I'm not going to leave you high and dry while you're doing it. In fact, I'm very much in awe of you. You're taking it upon yourself to recognize a part of your life that you don't like and take steps to change it. I realize that this probably doesn't seem like that big a deal to you, but it takes a sort of courage that not many people possess. So go ahead and say what you want to say to me; you can't go wrong.

As to the rest of it, you have to remember that even though you come up with these scripts and it seems like common sense that everyone would follow them, nobody knows them but you. Were I to meet you on the street and were you to ask me for directions, I wouldn't know exactly what you expected me to say. I'd know that you wanted me to help you and that I'd want to help you and that's about the extent of it. I would know that you're uncomfortable because I'm good at assessing people's moods and I would also know that you've ben hurt. I would probably want to show concern and do my best to put you at ease. Had I the time I would probably even offer to escort you to your destination, which having the insight I do from this thread I suspect might cause you to panic. I would do all of this because I don't have your script. I don't know that all you want is for me to give you the directions you need and leave you alone.

Or, we can use the restaurant. Actually, that's a very good example. Normally, it works more or less how you describe it, but not always exactly. Your experience at Denny's is a prime example of that. The servers for whatever reason didn't follow your script. Where Grace or Sissy or myself would've simply stopped a server and asked to be served, you panicked. The reason for that is because I don't follow a script for these interactions, which allows me to be flexible. When it doesn't go exactly as planned I can change my own behaviour and interpretation to reflect the new scenario and act accordingly. By following a set script you deny yourself that flexibility.

I can guarantee you that had you stopped a member of the waitstaff and politely reminded them that you hadn't been served you would've had an apology and someone there to serve you almost immediately. The reason I can be so confident is that I know what the waitstaff were expecting in that interaction. They wanted to serve you so that the restaurant would make money so that they would get paid. And they wanted your tip too; a small tip is better than no tip at all. Do I know exactly what they were thinking? Of course not; it would be a remarkable feat if I did. But I know what they were expecting and I know what I as a customer would expect. By understanding what everyone wants in the situation I can work towards our mutual goals without having to follow a set pattern of behaviour.

This next bit is going to sound a bit harsh and I'm going to apologize in advance. The fact is, you are being unreasonable. You write your scripts according to your frame of reference, your view of the world. You have a unique way of looking at any given situation, just as we all do. No two people experience the world exactly the same way. We all have our own method of interpreting based on our own past, our own feelings, our own mentality. The waitress who was meant to serve you had a completely different take on the world. Maybe she missed you because she was busy and didn't see you in the corner. Maybe she made the assumption posited above, that you as a young professional would ask for assistance if and when you required it. Maybe her pet dog died right before her shift and the stress was preventing her from focussing on the task at hand. Or maybe she just saw you and didn't like you (this one is highly unlikely). It's impossible to know, because neither you or I are her. We can't see the world through her eyes. And when you expect someone to follow a set pattern, you're assuming that they're going to interpret things in a way that isn't necessarily given. They may not see the world the way you do or the way you expect them to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
Ok. I'll just have to accept this at face value, because it seems counter-intuitive to me. More planning has always seemed like a the best path to success to me, and usually works.
Planning can be helpful in the proper circumstances. There are areas in life where planning is a good way to achieve your goals and there are areas where it is absolutely essential. Can you imagine trying to go through graduate school without planning when you were going to go to class, when you were going to study and when you were going to work on your dissertation? It would have been nearly impossible. That's an area where planning things out is the key to success. But when it comes to other people's behaviour, you can't plan. You don't have any certainty of how they're going to react. There's a whole plethora of circumstances that seem important to that individual that you know nothing about. And when you try to plan for it and it doesn't go as expected you cause yourself a lot of stress. If you can learn to work 'on the fly' so to speak and not plan each exchange in detail you can eliminate that stress.

It's okay to know what you expect to gain out of an exchange and it's okay to make a guess at what the other person expects. But you can't accept that guess as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
You needn't worry about that. You've been very helpful. I'll talk to Grace tomorrow morning. There are one or two things I'm still not quite clear on, but it's late, so I'll just sleep on it tonight.
By all means. Definitely use Grace and Sissy to your advantage, but do it on terms that you're comfortable with. And I'd say you've earned a good night's sleep for yourself.

I hope I'm not being too forward in telling you that I'm proud of you for the steps you've taken so far. You really are showing a lot of strength already and doing very well. I will offer you all the guidance I can to help you continue to move in the right direction.

Good luck and goodnight.
__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame
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