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Originally Posted by dksuddeth
imo, a wealthy individual (as an individual) can be trusted. a wealthy corporation should never be trusted.
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Most of the wealthy are wealthy, in part, because they are incorporated.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I disagree that the rich are somehow necessarily more understanding of the economy. Certainly some of them are, but: A lot of wealthy people hire accountants to help them exploit loopholes in tax code. A lot of rich people hire experts to invest their money for them. A lot of rich people, like our president(in a matter of fact nonpartisan jab of a reference) never had to work a day in their life to achieve material wealth. For every warren buffet there is a george bush or a paris hilton. There are a lot of wealthy people who use their money to buy the expertise of people who can help them keep and/or make money. The poor don't often have the same access to these same experts.
I don't trust the rich any more than I trust the poor. Someone with money is just as apt to fuck you over as someone without money. The rich person often has access to more effective means of doing so.
The people I don't trust as a rule are the greedy. The ken lays, the latrell sprewels, the people who prefer the accumulation of wealth to integrity or ethical behavior. I don't trust people who think that the economy's sole purpose is facilitate the accumulation of wealth.
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Perhaps I needed to be more clear, I am of course talking about people who know how to make money, not those who get it handed to them. As for wealthy people hiring people who are smarter then them to manage their wealth, that only makes sense. I’ll be willing to bet you even Buffet has accountants and the lot. No one knows everything.
I don’t trust the rich in many matters any more than a poor man, but I do trust them (those again who know how to make money) with matters concerning money far more than a poor man. That doesn’t mean I’ll hand them my wallet kind of trust, but I trust they have a better idea for what makes the economy strong.
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
They don't but the thrust of this thread suggests that we should trust wealthy individuals to plan our finances... I think most would agree that this is a valid assessment on a level of personal finance but less credulous on a national level (i.e. for the masses).
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Why is that? Something that works for the individual won’t work for the economy as a whole? We should trust those who can not handle their own finances with ‘the masses’? Its that kind of thinking which is about to give us the social security melt down. I’m sure as hell glad I’m not 60.
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Originally Posted by kutulu
Wealth works on a pyramid scale and it would seem wastefull to devote large resources towards achieving a goal that less than 5% will get to.
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You lost me here. You are saying that since most people don’t understand finances there is not a need to spend money to teach it?
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I trust them like I trust anyone. A bad apple can ruin the whold group but that doesn't mean they are all bad.
I talk to the "rich" all the time to glean what deals are coming etc. I also ask them opinions on some plans that I have etc.
Do I ask my peers that are only buying depreciable assets on credit? Nope.
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Exactly my point. You don’t ask a crappy golfer how to play, you shouldn’t ask someone who is crappy with money what they think fiscal policy should be.
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Originally Posted by Rekna
In reality people get rich in one of 2 ways. A) It is given to them (inheritence or lottery) B) by taking advantage of others. I would not like either of these people making financial laws.
When I was younger I had a choice to make, I could have started my own buisness doing computer repairs/sales and easily made tuns of money by exploiting people who know nothing about computers and charging them a hundred dollars an hour to "fix" their computers and sell them computers with cheap parts for high profit or I could go to school and get a job making an honest living. I chose an honest living because I do not like taking advantage of people, I don't think I should charge someone $100 an hour to do something that deserves $20 an hour. Now I’m working on my PHD and will still make decent money but sometimes I sit back and wonder how much I could have made by taking advantage of people.
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You have a very odd view of an honest living. So do you expect someone else (since you didn’t deem it worthy) to do that work for $20 an hour? You had a skill others needed, supply was limited and demand was high, hence the rate. Yet you deemed your own time worth only $20 an hour. Time is the one thing we all run out of, I want to spend as little of that limited time working for money.
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Originally Posted by flstf
I agree. Unfortunately many of those who do understand how to play the game seem to also know how to take advantage of the system and who to payoff in order to increase their wealth. I don't doubt that there are many ecomomically smart wealthy people. I also don't doubt that many of them use this knowledge to vastly increase their wealth through corruption.
One can only hope that at least a few of these guys would be satisfied with their millions and want to run for national office and try to do the right thing instead of continuing to play the game they know so well. I think many are so caught up in creating more wealth for themselves that they cannot help themslves from using their knowledge and connections to rig the system. How do you know which ones we can trust when so many seem to be playing the game to increase their wealth at anyone/everyone elses expense?
I imagine Diogenes in search for an honest man would be hard pressed to find more than a few among our wealthy and politically elite.
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Influence will never go away in any society, so yes you can rig the system, be it with political power directly, or bribes. Despite this most of the wealthy are honest because there is no need to be dishonest about it. If I buy a house at $40k and sell it a week later for $60k was I dishonest? You won’t find to many self made rich men running because we have been taught to revile the rich in this country rather than respect them. We allow our own jealousies to take over and assume they must have cheated to get where they are.
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Originally Posted by pigglet
Ustwo,
this is similar to many other posters I think, but in response to the question:
First, are you talking about personal finanical planning, or larger political financial policy? If the first, then in theoretical space, the rich guy who made his own wealth. You have to assume he's being honest with you and that for some reason, he's going to tell you how to accumulate wealth instead of accumulating it himself...but obviously if you want to do x, then you emulate the people who have done x successfully. In the real world, unless I know the guy/girl/it really well, or he's making money for me and him simultaneously (he makes $$$ off my $$$), then I'm not too confident that I'll get the 100% straight dope from him, etc.
In political policy, I see no reason to trust random rich people over random poor people. You have to ask yourself on the behalf of whom is giving his recommendation? If its in his interest, there's no guarrantee that its in mine; in fact, it very likely will be directly counter to my interest - why would I take such advice?
If a rich guys tells me :
"I advise you to give me all your money. Now" I'm obviously not going to take that advice. If the national policy is just a convoluted version of that, why would I be excited about the idea?
Am I missing the intent of your post? I think there's no substitute for thinking for yourself, regardless of whether you adopt a rich or a poor person for your regent.
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While I think a rich man is more likely to give you good advice about finances on a 1-1 level due to the fact that a poor man can’t no matter how honest he is, that wasn’t my intent. My intent was more why on the grand scale of things, do we think that people who can’t make any money themselves know what is best for the economy at large.
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Originally Posted by Locobot
In Ustwo's state you're required to pass a course in consumer economics in order to graduate high school. The course covers topics such as insurance, lease agreements, contracts, labor rights, how to budget, and bankruptcy. Therefore I'd have to say one of the major premises for this thread, that we aren't teaching people financial responsibility, is pretty much bullshit.
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In my state you are required to pass an exam on the US government. I work with children and when I asked one of them how she didn’t know who the president was (bright kid too) if she just has this test she said they gave them the answers ahead of time. Plus who is teaching this class if it is being given fairly? A union member making 50k a year using the union retirement plan? I’d also add that almost nothing in there covers how to become wealthy or understanding money. Its more of a ‘how to manage your debt’ course. The replies that followed should let you know the truth of this ‘education’ if you are willing to listen to them. Even though I was in school when that was in place I never took such a course, and based on the level of consumer debt do you REALLY think that is enough?
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I agree with everything you said except this. I think our economy works best at accumulating wealth when its used just to accumulate wealth. The idea that it doesn't make sense economically to ensure that everyone has access to food, shelter, and healthcare is to me one of the great flaws with fiscal conservative thought. I would prefer that economic success was measured in terms of quality of life of the least fortunate in society, rather than the accumulation of wealth.
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Yes and this type of thought is why we are all in deep doo doo economicly in a few years. TANSTAAFL.
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Originally Posted by alansmithee
By your reasoning Ustwo, Mike Tyson would've been a good financial advisor, despite the fact he was hemmoraging money. The richer you are, the more likely you can be insulated and protected against your own foolishness..
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Well I'm not sure how rich Tyson is these days but he was never wealthy. He was blowing his income as fast as he made it, he just had a bigger income. But I of course meant people who knew how to manufacture wealth, not just got a big check for beating the snot out of someone as an employee of an entertainment industry.