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Ustwo · 11-21-2005, 12:34 PM

Well you could argue that the end result of the Lincoln/Douglas debate ended with the deaths of 600,000 some odd Americans a few years later, not sure if that was a good outcome.

I think we all have a tendency to over estimate the political discourse of the past and the level of civic interest. Historians have picked out the high points for us, the high diplomacy, the great strokes, and using hindsight can pick out gems like the Lincoln/Douglas debate as the turning point of an era. They tend to neglect in the basic texts, the fist fights in congress, the duels, the petty bribes and the low brow type of pandering that was also done. I enjoy this type of history and seek it out when I can. If anything I think we have come forward, not backwards.

One of the more interesting things I got out of reading the Lincoln/Douglas debate was the racism involved in Lincolns argument to end slavery. I've heard that later excused as he was just trying to get more people on his side (one of these points was that by freeing the slaves you will have less mixed race babies born) but either he was pandering or a racist, neither of which are good.

Mass media has become something of an issue, and it is argued that we don't get great speeches anymore because of focus groups, polling, etc which waters down any strong opinions until a speech says nothing. This may be true, but I have to wonder if there are really less 'great' moments or are we biased because its only the great ones of the past we are aquatinted with, while the poor ones are not recalled.

All of the 'great' moments I can recall happened at pivotal times, people often think they are living in these times, but history will judge.

TFP isn't going to solve any issues in the world on a grand scale. Sure maybe one of us may rise to great heights of influence and power someday and make a difference, and maybe something they learned here will change them on the way, but we are not talking about politics on the politics board for the most part.

We are speaking of philosophy, and most philosophical conversations are held for the sake of having them, nothing of substances comes of it. My philosophy is opposed, and often diametrically opposed, to many of you. The type and role of government some of you seem to like I feel will lead to a version of an Orwellian hell. We will find no agreement, no common ground. Back in college I used to enjoy speaking with the more radical groups on campus on the quad. Once, I spoke to a Trotskyite for a couple of hours, and missed class to do so. We had a very well mannered discussion, but my conclusion was that if they ever tried to take power beyond the 5 feet of booth space they occupied I'd be sure to see them up against the wall. Our philosophies were totally incompatible and there was no room for live and let live in their world view.

We of course can change minds here. I have had people PM me as such, but such changes are gradual and I would think more often in the lurkers than the posters. I've had a few professors, with whom I spoke with on political matters when the clinic was slow. One of them I used to speak with quite often, he was a liberal but not hard core about it, and after a few years of our talks he stated out of the blue he was coming around to my way of thinking. I didn't expect it, and was somewhat flattered that someone many years my senior whom I respected said this to me. This was a man who was as educated as myself, in the same field, living in the same area, and it still took five years of conversations to get him to START to come around to my point of view. What chance do we have with people from very different walks of life, in both age, intelligence, education, profession, and location of really changing someones core philosophy on how we see the world?

We really don't, so we talk because we enjoy it, we can learn what others are thinking, even if we don't know why they think it, but any change is going to take a long time to come to fruition.

11-21-2005, 12:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Well you could argue that the end result of the Lincoln/Douglas debate ended with the deaths of 600,000 some odd Americans a few years later, not sure if that was a good outcome. I think we all have a tendency to over estimate the political discourse of the past and the level of civic interest. Historians have picked out the high points for us, the high diplomacy, the great strokes, and using hindsight can pick out gems like the Lincoln/Douglas debate as the turning point of an era. They tend to neglect in the basic texts, the fist fights in congress, the duels, the petty bribes and the low brow type of pandering that was also done. I enjoy this type of history and seek it out when I can. If anything I think we have come forward, not backwards. One of the more interesting things I got out of reading the Lincoln/Douglas debate was the racism involved in Lincolns argument to end slavery. I've heard that later excused as he was just trying to get more people on his side (one of these points was that by freeing the slaves you will have less mixed race babies born) but either he was pandering or a racist, neither of which are good. Mass media has become something of an issue, and it is argued that we don't get great speeches anymore because of focus groups, polling, etc which waters down any strong opinions until a speech says nothing. This may be true, but I have to wonder if there are really less 'great' moments or are we biased because its only the great ones of the past we are aquatinted with, while the poor ones are not recalled. All of the 'great' moments I can recall happened at pivotal times, people often think they are living in these times, but history will judge. TFP isn't going to solve any issues in the world on a grand scale. Sure maybe one of us may rise to great heights of influence and power someday and make a difference, and maybe something they learned here will change them on the way, but we are not talking about politics on the politics board for the most part. We are speaking of philosophy, and most philosophical conversations are held for the sake of having them, nothing of substances comes of it. My philosophy is opposed, and often diametrically opposed, to many of you. The type and role of government some of you seem to like I feel will lead to a version of an Orwellian hell. We will find no agreement, no common ground. Back in college I used to enjoy speaking with the more radical groups on campus on the quad. Once, I spoke to a Trotskyite for a couple of hours, and missed class to do so. We had a very well mannered discussion, but my conclusion was that if they ever tried to take power beyond the 5 feet of booth space they occupied I'd be sure to see them up against the wall. Our philosophies were totally incompatible and there was no room for live and let live in their world view. We of course can change minds here. I have had people PM me as such, but such changes are gradual and I would think more often in the lurkers than the posters. I've had a few professors, with whom I spoke with on political matters when the clinic was slow. One of them I used to speak with quite often, he was a liberal but not hard core about it, and after a few years of our talks he stated out of the blue he was coming around to my way of thinking. I didn't expect it, and was somewhat flattered that someone many years my senior whom I respected said this to me. This was a man who was as educated as myself, in the same field, living in the same area, and it still took five years of conversations to get him to START to come around to my point of view. What chance do we have with people from very different walks of life, in both age, intelligence, education, profession, and location of really changing someones core philosophy on how we see the world? We really don't, so we talk because we enjoy it, we can learn what others are thinking, even if we don't know why they think it, but any change is going to take a long time to come to fruition. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 11-21-2005 at 12:41 PM..