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Nimetic · 10-25-2005, 05:42 PM

I think we'd all agree that it's possible to be alive without being self-aware.

Animals, bacteria and so on are alive. An organ such as a heart is 'alive' during the transplant process yes? Because a heart can beat independantly of a brain. The classic frog legs experiment (legs moving in response to current but not attached to a frog), the concept of "brain-dead" humans and so on. All imply that life can exist without consciousness as we know it. No single case is 100% proof, but taken together I think that the reasonable position is that life is independant of consciousness.

Moving to consciousness. I'm not familiar with all debate that has occurred on this... I'm still reading philosophy (my background is physics) which is interesting, but to some extent a big debate without much experimentation. We are lucky today in that we have so many more tools available.

Overall it seems to me that we have a clearly demonstrated correlation - in that stuff that directly affects the brain also affects consciousness. Psychoactive drugs, poisons, accidents, operations, electrostimulation. Some of these things do not affect the rest of the body. Those cases where surgeons implant electrodes are much more clear than say alcohol, in that few areas of the body are affected. Just the brain and thinking... oh and the scalp. : >

To a lesser extent, my view here is the same as with the "life/consciousness" issue. While no one case is conclusive - taken together, there is strong evidence linking consciousness to the brain.

In this case we can postulate tricky scenarios where the brain is a receiver or link to another external (or internal) mechanism, be it a soul, astral being or whatever. However... these arguments are torturous and complicated. They presuppose that the universe is trying to trick us.

In the absence of other evidence existing at this time, I would argue that a rational person would see consciousness as arising from the brain. In fact, this hypothesis seems to be the basis on which drugs and medical treatments are developed - with positive results so far in my view.

Within that... well I suppose that a very interesting question is "when does self awareness begin to operate in humans". When do these feedback (?) mechanisms become operative in the brain... Given that babies have poor control of their limbs/eyes - this seems a difficult thing to test. My gut feeling is that they'd have self-awareness pretty early - even if they don't retain memory of the period or can't display it to their parents.

Is self awareness the same as consciousness... (Probably not)

Is self awareness an on/off/indivisible thing I wonder, or can we have 50% self awarness (and/or consciousness)?

I would think that under the influence of some drugs, we certainly have less self awareness / consciousness at some times than others. Are we conscious while asleep? If not... then my candle or spark has only just started recently.

10-25-2005, 05:42 PM	#38 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	I think we'd all agree that it's possible to be alive without being self-aware. Animals, bacteria and so on are alive. An organ such as a heart is 'alive' during the transplant process yes? Because a heart can beat independantly of a brain. The classic frog legs experiment (legs moving in response to current but not attached to a frog), the concept of "brain-dead" humans and so on. All imply that life can exist without consciousness as we know it. No single case is 100% proof, but taken together I think that the reasonable position is that life is independant of consciousness. Moving to consciousness. I'm not familiar with all debate that has occurred on this... I'm still reading philosophy (my background is physics) which is interesting, but to some extent a big debate without much experimentation. We are lucky today in that we have so many more tools available. Overall it seems to me that we have a clearly demonstrated correlation - in that stuff that directly affects the brain also affects consciousness. Psychoactive drugs, poisons, accidents, operations, electrostimulation. Some of these things do not affect the rest of the body. Those cases where surgeons implant electrodes are much more clear than say alcohol, in that few areas of the body are affected. Just the brain and thinking... oh and the scalp. : > To a lesser extent, my view here is the same as with the "life/consciousness" issue. While no one case is conclusive - taken together, there is strong evidence linking consciousness to the brain. In this case we can postulate tricky scenarios where the brain is a receiver or link to another external (or internal) mechanism, be it a soul, astral being or whatever. However... these arguments are torturous and complicated. They presuppose that the universe is trying to trick us. In the absence of other evidence existing at this time, I would argue that a rational person would see consciousness as arising from the brain. In fact, this hypothesis seems to be the basis on which drugs and medical treatments are developed - with positive results so far in my view. Within that... well I suppose that a very interesting question is "when does self awareness begin to operate in humans". When do these feedback (?) mechanisms become operative in the brain... Given that babies have poor control of their limbs/eyes - this seems a difficult thing to test. My gut feeling is that they'd have self-awareness pretty early - even if they don't retain memory of the period or can't display it to their parents. Is self awareness the same as consciousness... (Probably not) Is self awareness an on/off/indivisible thing I wonder, or can we have 50% self awarness (and/or consciousness)? I would think that under the influence of some drugs, we certainly have less self awareness / consciousness at some times than others. Are we conscious while asleep? If not... then my candle or spark has only just started recently.