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martinguerre · 10-13-2005, 03:21 PM

Elphaba...i was not able to find good info on the Gospel of Deborah. This puzzles me a bit...and i'm going to look some more.

Gospel of Mary fits in with some of what i was talking about. It's traditionally identified as a Gnostic text. As i said, i don't know what that means. The extant text is somewhat world denying but lacks clear connections to a known group that we would identify as Gnostic. Other than being found at Nag Hammadi, i don't know that there's a case to be made that it is closely related to or derivative of the Gospel of Thomas or other such classically "Gnostic" texts. It's not a narrative Gospel as far as we can tell...it's mostly wisdom sayings and debates. This is the kind of material that doesn't make the cut. John makes it in, but just barely. If i had to speculate, it was because in these cases, people were self-consciously putting words in Jesus' mouth to make a theological point. And as long as that point seemed too Hellenistic, it tended to get sliced in the cannonization process. John again, is somewhat the exception..and had significant trouble staying in the recognized cannon.

Finally...the Gospel of Mary clearly authorizes women's ministry and place in the emerging Church. For this reason, i would speculate that it reflects a traditon working back at least to the late first century, and was put to text no later than mid second century. Paul's letters reflect this same transition back in to patriarchy, where his writing in 50-60 CE reflects women's leadership in the church, but a later writer taking Paul's name in the 2nd century wrote injuctions against a woman teaching. Now, some say that 1 and 2 Timothy mark the end of women's leadership, but i think that if you have to write about something, it means that it's still happening. Sadly, it wasn't for another two millenia that a significant number in the Christian community would call a woman a pastor or elder.

Poppinjay-thanks. I'm glad that this has been helpful. One note about the Oxford Annotated, is that it includes only some additional writings from the Intertestamental period. but not Non-Cannonical NT material.

archpaladin-i'll do a quick annotated biblography for what i've written here when i get back home to my books.

10-13-2005, 03:21 PM	#37 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	Elphaba...i was not able to find good info on the Gospel of Deborah. This puzzles me a bit...and i'm going to look some more. Gospel of Mary fits in with some of what i was talking about. It's traditionally identified as a Gnostic text. As i said, i don't know what that means. The extant text is somewhat world denying but lacks clear connections to a known group that we would identify as Gnostic. Other than being found at Nag Hammadi, i don't know that there's a case to be made that it is closely related to or derivative of the Gospel of Thomas or other such classically "Gnostic" texts. It's not a narrative Gospel as far as we can tell...it's mostly wisdom sayings and debates. This is the kind of material that doesn't make the cut. John makes it in, but just barely. If i had to speculate, it was because in these cases, people were self-consciously putting words in Jesus' mouth to make a theological point. And as long as that point seemed too Hellenistic, it tended to get sliced in the cannonization process. John again, is somewhat the exception..and had significant trouble staying in the recognized cannon. Finally...the Gospel of Mary clearly authorizes women's ministry and place in the emerging Church. For this reason, i would speculate that it reflects a traditon working back at least to the late first century, and was put to text no later than mid second century. Paul's letters reflect this same transition back in to patriarchy, where his writing in 50-60 CE reflects women's leadership in the church, but a later writer taking Paul's name in the 2nd century wrote injuctions against a woman teaching. Now, some say that 1 and 2 Timothy mark the end of women's leadership, but i think that if you have to write about something, it means that it's still happening. Sadly, it wasn't for another two millenia that a significant number in the Christian community would call a woman a pastor or elder. Poppinjay-thanks. I'm glad that this has been helpful. One note about the Oxford Annotated, is that it includes only some additional writings from the Intertestamental period. but not Non-Cannonical NT material. archpaladin-i'll do a quick annotated biblography for what i've written here when i get back home to my books. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16