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Originally Posted by 1010011010
I'd describe myself as agnostic and atheist. Nobody knows if gods exist and I don't believe any do.
This whole conversation is purely a hypothetical enterprise for the purposes of edification and entertainment as far as I'm concerned.
To go on a bit, this free will v. omniscience question is not a moral one, because at no point is the omniscient being described as anything other than omniscient. It is not judgemental, merely all-knowing. It's all very straight forward: If an omniscient being exists, can we have free will?
I say yes, and I've tried to illustrate it several times with the "Bob can chose vanilla, but he won't." type examples. Thus far your response has been "No, he can't." Not a whole lot to work with in that response.
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Well, I did suspect you were playing a game, so it seems I have smoked you out (but game theory would dictate you have yet other layers of deception in wait). And now you say, "It's all very straight forward: If an omniscient being exists, can we have free will?" But the following illustrates you have never been straightforward in posing such a question, which was NOT the initial question, and given your record of dodging about, this is likely another aspect of your deceptive strategy.
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From previous posts
#1 8-6, 9:09 PM JumpinJesus
Does free will exist?
I did a search for this topic and came up with nothing, so if this has been discussed before, then accept my apologies, as I am not omniscient.
Before I start, allow me this caveat: This discussion is not about the Christian god or Jesus, but about every religion with a supreme, omniscient being.
#92 10-9, 1:24 PM #92 1010011010
Well, the original question was whether we have free will or an omniscience being. I haven't see where anyone has explicitly explained that one doesn't preclude the other.
#95 10-9 5:14 PM 1010011010
First off, I'm not using omniscience as it applies to a divine being
#106 10-10, 5:25 PM 1010011010
To go on a bit, this free will v. omniscience question is not a moral one, because at no point is the omniscient being described as anything other than omniscient. It is not judgemental, merely all-knowing. It's all very straight forward: If an omniscient being exists, can we have free will?
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And your attempt to illustrate whatever you thought you were illustrating by your Bob and his Vanilla gambit has fallen flat and would have been more appropriate as a lesson in your favorite Sunday School. One thing is clear through your smoke and fog screen: Agnostic or not, you still yearn for that childhood comfort zone that offered something magical to believe in, and you are still tormented by self-doubt.
Obviously I had much more to say than "no he can't," but as it turned out, all you ever really said was, "yes, he can," so there wasn't a whole hell of a lot to work with there either.
And of course this free will v. omniscience question IS a moral one. The "debate" has always been about man's freedom to make moral choices. It's never been a debate between different aspects of agnosticism, now has it, Bob?
Look up the etymology of the term omniscience, what don't you? It's always been entwined with finding, knowing and promulgating a universal set of moral laws.
I say this not for your benefit, but for that of those who might otherwise be taking you seriously.
Incidentally, one aspect of the art of deception is to acquire enough skill so that you don't get caught at it. You're not there yet.
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Envision a faux Socrates, hoist on his own petard!