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Francisco · 10-07-2005, 09:42 PM

[In order to discus this issue we must first prove that free will exists. So far everyone is dancing around this basic question.]
I'd say the opposite is true, as the assumption that prevails, and that all our actions are based on, is that free will does exist. So to answer the initial question, we would need to attempt to prove first that it doesn't exist, and that our feeling that we are making choices freely is itself an illusion, and that it was either predetermined or an inevitable result of evolution that we should feel that way.

"Predetermined" doesn't require a purpose behind all of this, but doesn't rule it out either. The best argument against free will has always been that physical laws of nature make the chain of cause and effect lead to inevitable results, and that one of those effects IS the illusion that decision making processes operate freely rather than that they are simply part of chemical reactive process which calls itself "life."

Present day science suggests there is a randomness involved in the cause and effects process that might allow for a reasonable belief in free will after all. So while that doesn't prove the "free will" concept is valid, it tends to weaken the argument that it isn't. So it doesn't look like we can prove that free will doesn't exist, but that still doesn't give us a way to prove the opposite either.

In fact, we would almost need to have a voice from God (which some claim they have heard) to prove with any certainty that we have free will. Of course many of us would then argue with that voice that if he (God) is real, and knows all things, then he is omnipotent, and must be lying about the free will scenario.

[Just what the hell if free will? An action that is free from influence of another being. It is a social concept. A linguistic term to describe a social situation.]
I'm afraid you need to look up the definition of free will again. It doesn't merely apply to social situations - it applies to choices made by any living creature that attempts to decide, instinctively or consciously, how to react in any given situation.

10-07-2005, 09:42 PM	#81 (permalink)
Francisco Banned	[In order to discus this issue we must first prove that free will exists. So far everyone is dancing around this basic question.] I'd say the opposite is true, as the assumption that prevails, and that all our actions are based on, is that free will does exist. So to answer the initial question, we would need to attempt to prove first that it doesn't exist, and that our feeling that we are making choices freely is itself an illusion, and that it was either predetermined or an inevitable result of evolution that we should feel that way. "Predetermined" doesn't require a purpose behind all of this, but doesn't rule it out either. The best argument against free will has always been that physical laws of nature make the chain of cause and effect lead to inevitable results, and that one of those effects IS the illusion that decision making processes operate freely rather than that they are simply part of chemical reactive process which calls itself "life." Present day science suggests there is a randomness involved in the cause and effects process that might allow for a reasonable belief in free will after all. So while that doesn't prove the "free will" concept is valid, it tends to weaken the argument that it isn't. So it doesn't look like we can prove that free will doesn't exist, but that still doesn't give us a way to prove the opposite either. In fact, we would almost need to have a voice from God (which some claim they have heard) to prove with any certainty that we have free will. Of course many of us would then argue with that voice that if he (God) is real, and knows all things, then he is omnipotent, and must be lying about the free will scenario. [Just what the hell if free will? An action that is free from influence of another being. It is a social concept. A linguistic term to describe a social situation.] I'm afraid you need to look up the definition of free will again. It doesn't merely apply to social situations - it applies to choices made by any living creature that attempts to decide, instinctively or consciously, how to react in any given situation. Last edited by Francisco; 10-07-2005 at 10:06 PM..