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Originally Posted by shakran
Yes, you are. Whenever someone disagrees with you here you accuse them of trying to suppress the blacks or put whites in a position of power, or in some other way accuse them of being racist. Based on his replies, the most logical conclusion is that he wants equality. Equality does not equal putting the blacks down.
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The problem is it's NOT equality. There are present imbalances that won't go away by people sticking their heads in the sand. As the OP was saying, the "color blind" society is only really trotted out now to attack AA. But these people never address what to do about the current imbalances, they just attack AA. They never want to address the racism that is ingrained into many places across the country, it's just attack AA.
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Look. It's really very simple. A color blind society is one in which race does not matter. Note that I did not say that it is one in which race does not matter as long as you're white. You've been adding that last part, but that's not how we define it. I'm not out to oppress blacks or anyone else. My goal is a society where people finally stop pissing around acting as though skin pigmentation makes any difference in the worth of a person. We're not gonna achieve that as long as we force people to discriminate based on skin pigmentation, which IS what AA does.
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Again, you say you want a society "where people finally stop pissing around acting as though skin pigmentation makes any difference in the worth of a person". But from what you (and many others) seem to say, the only thing holding this back is AA. The "color blind" society idea is never brought out when there IS racism, but only when attacking AA. We won't achieve a true color blind society as long as people who are in economically powerful positions continue to discriminate and as long as minorities are second class citizens.
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I assume you're trying to be ironic here, but it's not working - you're shooting yourself in the foot. And if you're not being ironic, then you just shot yourself in both feet.
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How am I shooting myself in the foot?
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Oh ok. I get it now. So you're saying that only POOR black people should benefit from affirmative action. If they came from a home where, say, dad was a doctor making $400k per year, they shouldn't recieve any special consideration as far as minority hiring goes. Because see the RICH black applicant is not socioeconomically disadvantaged.
Of course, if that were REALLY how AA works, don't you think "parent's income" would be an item on the pre-employment questionaire?
It's not I that needs to study affirmative action here. . . .
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You're missing my point. I said economic imbalance and institutional racism/sexism. That has nothing to do with the wealth of individual applicants (or their parent's wealth). The rich black applicant might not be disadvantaged, but there is still the chance for institutional racism (or even economic imbalance).
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Plus, AA does have something to do with race relations. It's pissing a lot of people off, which is hurting race relations. You can stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes all you want, but the ugly truth will still be out there, and that is that AA is fostering racial hatred.
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I fully understand that it angers alot of people. Were the roles reversed, I'd probably be angry myself. I'm also sure that freeing the slaves fostered racial hatred and pissed alot of people off. As did giving women and minorities the vote, desegregating schools, and numerous other government action/legislaton which tried to address racism/sexism. It's just I value an equal chance for minorites over the contentment of the general white populace.
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No, that's what you WANT me to want because then it would further your cause. Unfortunately for you, I don't want only minorities to disregard skin color, I want EVERYONE to disregard skin color.
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I don't really want you to want anything. But there's no other logical conclusion than what I initially said. Because the only time this "color blind" nonsence seems to be brought up is when AA comes up, not when issues of real discrimination come up. And I have yet to see anyone suggest something better than AA for addressing institutional racism/sexism and economic imbalance between white males and women/minorities.
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No, what it's saying is that you need to stop using racist terminology. Stop bitching about the whitocracy. Even if you were correct that there was one, you certainly wouldn't gain any ground by pissing the "whitocracy" off by sitting there calling them names.
But I for one am tired of being lumped in with the evil white guys. It is not I who have been hurling racist insults left and right in this thread, it is you.
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For one, I've not used one piece of racist terminology. It seems you are hypersensitive to anything that might not make white people look the best. And as for being lumped in with the "evil white guys", I never once mentioned evil. As i've said, were the positions reversed I'd probably feel much the same way. And again, you can't point out a single racist insult that I've posted, so harping on that is useless.
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I never said that. You seem to be having an awfully good time putting racist words in my mouth. Seems to me you need to have a little diversity training yourself so that you realize that not all white people are KKK members, and not all white people feel as though you owe us something for not enslaving you. Sheesh.
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I realize not all white people are KKK members. I also realize that many white people think that a magic wand was waved in the 70's that eliminated racism.What the civil rights movement has done is make "racism" something to be avoid being called, not something to avoid BEING. I also know that many white people who claim to not be racist can say things like this:
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Originally Posted by article from post 41
"I'm not racist or anything," he said. "It's just, some people I hate, some people I don't get along with. And black people just happen to be the ones because they think they're better than everyone else."
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And not all whites feel owed something for ending slavery, but many think that was enough. Which is false.
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Again, you are trying to shove 100% of the problem onto one group without shouldering any of the work that needs to be done to address the problem yourself. I know that you feel the white population owes you everything because some of our ancient ancestors enslaved some of your ancient ancestors (not mine, btw - my ancestors immigrated here long after the emancipation proclamation, so I really fail to see how you can possibly lay the blame for slavery at my feet.) No one's arguing that the whites enslaved the blacks. No one's arguing that it was an atrocious thing to do. But now we are at a point where you need to sit down and decide whether or not you really want good race relations. Because if you do, you also need to take steps to meet that goal. You cannot expect us to do it all because we cannot change your apparent attitude that all whites are out to get you.
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You are totally wrong. I'm not trying to shove 100% of the problem onto any group. I just recognize that it isn't black people who are keeping themselves in poverty. And that is where the "color blind" society nonsense comes into play. First, many whites seem to think (like you obviously do) that every racial problem origninates from slavery (and "ancient ancestors" is overstating the time since slavery, they weren't neanderthals being enslaved, it was only 150 yrs ago). The effects of racism aren't as bad as during slavery, but they are still here, and aren't so much the exception as the norm. Also, I DON'T think the white population owes me everything, but I do think that blacks are owed a fair chance. I actually EXPECT little from whites. And I agree with much of what Cosby says (who is often attacked by many so-called black leaders) about self reliance. Because I know that even with AA, for a black person to achieve anything lasting, it's not good enough to be as good as a white person, you have to try to be better. And as for "good race relations", that seems to be a euphamism for "blacks shutting up". Because personally, I'd rather have bad "race relations" and see blacks have a better position in society than have good "race relations" and continue a spiral into poverty.
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Now, if decent relations among the races aren't important to you, then by all means keep doing what you're doing, because following your ideas pretty much guarantees that they'll never get any better.
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No, my ideas help ensure that black people have a chance at elevating themselves. Race relations aren't something that I see as ever being much better than they are now, so steps have to be taken to ensure that those without the power aren't totally at the mercy of those holding the power. And this is threatening to many people in power.