Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Martian
Allow me to reiterate that I'm not condoning the reaction here. What I'm ultimately getting at is that I know why they reacted as they did, at least initially. This makes it all the more reprehensible to me, because I understand the situation and their emotional response to it and I still don't think it justifies anything.
|
Understood. I don't think that saying that you would be upset by this makes you a bad person. I don't think it automatically makes you a homophobe. I'm not trying to imply any of that... Just making sure here...i think this has been a really productive thread so far, and i say keep it that way.
Quote:
|
This is sort of like 'I never told you because you never asked.' If I see a girl I find attractive, the first thought in my head isn't whether or not she was born with a penis. The transgendered girl is a special case and one most men aren't going to think about under normal circumstances. While it's important and certainly a wise idea to inquire as to someone's sexual history before becoming intimate with them, I don't think it's a moral obligation under most conditions. A transgendered girl who does not reveal the nature of her sexual history, however, is engaging in an implicit deception which I believe is morally wrong.
|
First, i think it is a moral obligation to discuss sexual history before an encounter, at least as far as transmission of STDs is concerned. AIDS is still a death sentence, even with better treatment options, and infection rates are on the rise again.
Second, the highlighted comment. Some natal (and self identified) women have an enlongated clitoris. Some men might be upset by this...after all it does resemble a small penis. Do they have a moral obligation to disclose this, even though it has no bearing on their perception of the sexual activity they engage in? What you're saying is that numerically smaller populations bear the responsbility for communication about issues in human sexuality. Do men with small dicks have a obligation to speak up? Women with inverted nipples? I'm not trying to be crass. But why exactly is this not a two way street?
Quote:
|
We (collectively) have a habit of reducing things to black and white when the reality is that there are all manner of shades of grey. 'What those boys did was wrong, which means that what she did was okay.' I truly hope I don't need to point out the flaw in this logic to anyone.
|
I'm not handing her a gold star. Her judgement was not the greatest, specifically in her choice of companions...but the fact that some people think that it's okay to flip out when they encounter a transgender person does not oblige them to walk around with a big sign around their neck that says "i at one time had a dick/vagina."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pigglet
martin, I'm not entirely sure I understand the above, so allow me to ask a question. Are you essentially saying that we as a society can train ourselves to be less prone to destructive violent reactions through introspective reflection? I would agree. I'm not entirely sure that's the most germane point to the topic of this thread, but maybe it is. I think that this quickly becomes a point of departure for meditative practices and intense self-psychoanalysis. If you wish to argue that we pursue this is a culture, fine with me. Solves a lot more problems than the single situation here.
|
I don't think introspection could entirely determine our actions...but i think our imaginative practice makes a large difference in how we react. Self-fufilling prophecy is a widely observed phenomenon elsewhere...i think it's very apt here. Try day dreaming for a week about how horrid gas stations are, how gross they are, how scared you feel about them, how angry you become when inside of one, etc. Then walk into a gas station. It's a pretty specious example, but i think you might get what i'm saying. Now think about having all those same associations about something you've never experienced before. Regardless of if you would have liked that whatever something is in other circumstances....you're quite likely to go with those pre-recieved associations. I don't expect that 100% of the population would enjoy or seek out relationships with transgendered persons. But i do question the social practice of nearly universally imagining them as the monsters of the sexual world, the horror story to trump all others. Is there any justified reason for that? Does it not create an enviroment in which people will process any encounter in a sharply negative cultural lens?
Quote:
|
Ok, how about the flip side of the coin? First, I would like to note that this wasn't a one night stand. This occurred over a period of time. All parties should have been getting to know one another more seriously. It sounds to me like these guys were basically, as analog pointed out, perhaps not too bright. How about ignorant rednecks? I would think after a while, this girl would have realized that. In my opinion, everyone involved made bad decisions leading to a bad situation; however, what these guys did to handle that situation was completely and totally inappropriate.
|
I don't think i really disagree with that...I have no reason to characterize the perpetrators as rednecks, but i would say that errors in judgement occured with all parties. For instance, Gwen who was 17 told the perps (who were all older than her) that she was 19, and that's not cool. But her age might also explain her choice not to reveal this information, and some of the risk taking behavior she engaged in. all said, not quite stellar, but i still don't think that it creates and implication of moral duty for other transgendered persons.
If it were me, i don't think i would have cause to have sexual relations with someone without conveying that kind of information. But as long as we're assuming the morality of casual sex, i don't know how gender transition moves on to the short list of "things you absolutely must talk about before getting it on."
Quote:
|
Last thing, this seems to me to be a situation where you want to encourage tolerance, but only in the sense that you want to be tolerated. If you want to further tolerance, then you have to tolerate people who are not going to have happy warm feelings, and indeed may "flip out", about having sex with someone not of their gender orientation. I don't tolerate murder, but I can tolerate the human emotion of disgust and confusion that naturally will occur upon finding out you have violated a fairly strong innate principle of your identity. I'm not sure we can condition ourselves out of these emotions, without essentially conditioning ourselves out of gender preference - at least within the confines of this situation.
|
As i think i've implied before, this isn't personal. And i do get it that some people would feel very hurt or upset by this kind of a situation. I don't think that reaction makes a person evil...and so long as they deal with their feelings in appropriate ways, i won't stand in judgement. My question is how much of that reaction is socially constructed? How much do our cultural practices contribute to those people processing what has happened to them as a violation or hurt? Our society on the whole choses to validate the idea that a sexual experience with a person of the same natal gender makes a person gay. Is that reflective of reality? Is that helpful? Does that cause hurt?