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Originally Posted by martinguerre
I don't think anyone is saying that someone doesn't have the right to feel upset at things that are hard for them to process, or are dissapointing, or unsettling. My point has been that we constantly assume that "freaking out" for lack of a better word is the correct response to this situation. For someone who finds themselves at that point, and who doesn't know what to do, they might take those cultural images to help shape their reaction. If they think they have to defend their heterosexuality by flipping out.... what do you think they might do?
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martin, I'm not entirely sure I understand the above, so allow me to ask a question. Are you essentially saying that we as a society can train ourselves to be less prone to destructive violent reactions through introspective reflection? I would agree. I'm not entirely sure that's the
most germane point to the topic of this thread, but maybe it is. I think that this quickly becomes a point of departure for meditative practices and intense self-psychoanalysis. If you wish to argue that we pursue this is a culture, fine with me. Solves a lot more problems than the single situation here.
I'm not sure that "defending one's heterosexuality" is the only issue at stake, but also the processing of the divergence of reality from your previously held perception of reality. I'm not sure I can completely invalidate a physical response to this, in a blanket sense. I do think that the levels here were drastically innapropriate, but we are repeating ourselves at this point I think.
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Originally Posted by martin
It's entirely the point. This is the kind of information one deserves to explore in the context of a trusting relationship. If you go by appearances only, then that's the only information that determines who you end up with. Appearances do not always accurately reflect natal gender.
I don't mean this as a bogeyman...sleep around, and someday this will happen to you. I'm just trying to get at what a big honking deal we do and don't make about sex. Sex is casual, and you can have it with anyone who looks hot. Sex is serious, and if you are intimate with someone who has a dick, you're gay forever. That social disconnection on how we imagine sex is the problem here. We want sex to be casual in many ways...but we can't seem to let go of some of these problems. What starts out as some sex suddenly gets cast as a life altering and idenity shattering trauma. No wonder people choose not to reveal gender transitions. Society still collectively flips shit.
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Ok, how about the flip side of the coin? First, I would like to note that this wasn't a one night stand. This occurred over a period of time. All parties should have been getting to know one another more seriously. It sounds to me like these guys were basically, as
analog pointed out, perhaps not too bright. How about ignorant rednecks? I would think after a while, this girl would have realized that. In my opinion, everyone involved made bad decisions leading to a bad situation; however, what these guys did to handle that situation was completely and totally inappropriate.
You also mention "not mentioning gender transitions;" I don't know how much of a difference it would make / have made, but it might be important to note that this girl was still rolling quarters in her drawers. It's not like "yeah, I used to have male genitalia, but that's all in the past." It's more like "yeah, I have a dick." It's just dangerous. I strongly disagree with what happened, and I'm not blaming the victim. What these guys did was absolutely wrong. I'm simply saying that in the general sense, I can understand someone having a strong adverse reaction to finding out that they just had anal sex with a man, considering that they are a heterosexual. I'm further saying that, even if I don't like it, I can
understand how that might translate into a physical reaction, in the immediate sense.
Last thing, this seems to me to be a situation where you want to encourage tolerance, but only in the sense that you want to be tolerated. If you want to further tolerance, then you have to tolerate people who are not going to have happy warm feelings, and indeed may "flip out", about having sex with someone not of their gender orientation. I don't tolerate murder, but I can tolerate the human emotion of disgust and confusion that naturally will occur upon finding out you have violated a fairly strong innate principle of your identity. I'm not sure we can condition ourselves out of these emotions, without essentially conditioning ourselves out of gender preference - at least within the confines of this situation.
Either way, I've got to bust out for the day. I've enjoyed the discussion - things to think about. Have a nice weekend.