Thread: 60 Years ago...
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:05 AM   #57 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv
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Location: Taking a mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacifier
yes, but how can you still claim an invasion would have costed X-thousands of american lives?
How can you still claim that it would have costed X-thousand americans lives if you didn't tried?
That claim is just a "what if", highly speculative, but it is always presented as "fact".

This is not about what should have done instead, but also how to view and value the events afterwards.


And again:
Some have claimed that the Japanese were already essentially defeated, and therefore use of the bombs was unnecessary. General Dwight D. Eisenhower so advised the Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimson, in July of 1945. [12] The highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater, General Douglas MacArthur, was not consulted beforehand, but said afterward that there was no military justification for the bombings.

I question your justification. IMO the "we saved lives" claim is wrong, there would have been multiple other option to save lives wothout dropping the bombs, also both bombs were dropped in quick succession which also makes the claim unbelievable. The biggest reason for the bomb was to show the Russians the finger.
You need to give it a rest. Preferably while doing some research.

Here's a history lesson I was involved with awhile back. I challenge you to find a factual error in it.

The Japanese also used biological warfare against the Chinese. Some of it was directed against villages suspected of helping the American fliers in the Doolittle raid over Tokyo. In areas that might have served as landing areas for the bombers, the Japanese plowed up every Chinese airfield within 20,000 square miles, and massacred 250,000 civilians. We now know that Japanese aviators sprayed fleas carrying plague over large metropolitan areas like Shanghai, and that flasks containing cholera, dysentery, typhoid, plague, and anthrax were tossed into rivers, wells, reservoirs, and houses. The Japanese also mixed food with deadly germs to affect Chinese civilians and military. Cakes laced with typhoid were left in areas full of hungry peasants, and bread containing disease germs was given to POWs before they were freed. The final death count was almost 4 million, with all but 400,000 being civilians. Millions more perished from starvation and disease caused by Japanese looting, bombing, and medical experimentation. If those deaths are added to the final count, the Japanese killed more than 19 million Chinese people in its nine-year war with China.

This will give you some idea of the [evil] enemy we were fighting, and why it was decided that the atomic bomb would save more lives than it destroyed. A land invasion of Japan would cost at least a million American lives, by most estimates. Japanese citizens were being armed, and had the same views of honor and death as did the soldiers. They would fight to the death. (As late as 1977, Japanese pilots were found on Pacific islands, unaware that the war was over and still fighting it.)
In his history of World War II, Winston Churchill wrote of the decision,
"Up to this moment we had shaped our ideas towards an assault upon the homeland of Japan by terrific air bombing and by the invasion of very large armies. We had contemplated the desperate resistance of the Japanese fighting to the death with Samurai devotion, not only in pitched battles, but in every cave and dugout. I had in my mind the spectacle of Okinawa island, where many thousands of Japanese, rather than surrender, had drawn up in line and destroyed themselves by hand-grenades after their leaders had solemnly performed the rite of hara-kiri. To quell the Japanese resistance man by man and conquer the country yard by yard might well require the loss of a million American lives and half that number of British-or more if we could get them there. . ."

There are those who say that dropping the atomic bombs was unnecessary, that Japan needed only to be blockaded and starved into submission, or that air power alone could destroy the Japanese power of resistance. The American Chiefs of Staff rejected these ideas. Even though the Japanese homeland was in chaos and on the verge of collapse, power still lay almost entirely in the hands of a military clique determined to commit the nation to mass suicide rather than accept defeat. When he learned of the atomic bomb, Churchill saw the weapon as so "supernatural" that its use might provide the Japanese with an excuse to surrender while saving their honor (and thus many Japanese lives). They wouldn't have to commit themselves to fighting to the death of the last man. In addition, we wouldn't need the help of the Russians. The final decision rested with President Truman, and Churchill said, ". . . I never doubted what it would be, nor have I ever doubted since that he was right. There was unanimous, automatic, unquestioned agreement around our table; nor did I ever hear the slightest suggestion that we should do otherwise."

On July 26, 1945, a document giving Japan an ultimatum was published. It was from the President of the United States, the president of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain. The document contained the sentence: "The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese forces, and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland." The document called for Japan's unconditional surrender; the alternative was "complete and utter destruction."

Japan rejected the terms, and plans were made to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (military targets). Every chance was given to the inhabitants. Many Japanese cities were warned by leaflets of upcoming bombing raids which were then carried out as stated. We did what we said we were going to do. By the time of the last warning on August 5, a million and a half leaflets had been dropped every day since July 27, along with 3 million copies of the ultimatum. (Contrast this to Pearl Harbor, where war was declared six hours AFTER the torpedoes were launched.)

The terms of surrender were accepted by the Japanese emperor on August 14, and the Allied fleets entered Tokyo Bay. On the morning of September 2, 1945, the formal surrender was signed on the U.S. battleship Missouri.
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