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Originally Posted by analog
So if their law says that consentual sex before marriage is punishible by death, and that's a law based on their morality... then how are our laws based on morality any different?
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They aren't. I would, and do, apply the same standard here.
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You argue that laws meant to torture, imprison, or kill the ones who break them are doing so in accordance with only their moral framework.
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No. I argued that morality can exist seperately from legality. Speeding isn't immoral, but it is illegal, for arguably practical reasons that have nothing to do with morality. There are things I don't do because I believe them to be immoral, but I would not want them to be illegal.
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Based on this, it can then be argued that rape, pedophilia, or murder are acceptable here, as long as a person's morality does not conflict with committing the act, simply because they're moral code doesn't find fault in it.
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I suppose that argument could be made. It certainly wasn't the argument I was making. Those things directly harm another person and should be illegal for that reason, not because they are immoral (which I believe they are). In this case, legality does coincide with morality, but this doesn't mean that it always does.
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In both examples, everyone says "it is this way" and it is... but one you find fault with because of differences in your opinion of proper morality. The real problem is, you can't determine "proper" morality for others.
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I doubt that everyone in Iran says "it is this way" as regards morality. The two boys who were executed, for example. The women who are honor killed by male relatives for another.
We can and should determine morality only for ourselves, not for others. With that I agree 100%.
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If it's the law there, it's the law there, and vice-versa.
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I can't argue with that. Laws, do not, however determine morality, even if they do often reflect it.
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Think of the reverse. By their laws, we're a perverse bunch of sex-mongers. Our women are all filthy whores because they don't wear clothing to clover themselves head to toe. So how do they feel about us?
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The difference here being that we don't punish women who wear a burkha. We allow Muslims, and anybody else to live their lives according to their moral code. The same is not true of Iran.
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Your argument only accomodates your own viewpoint and opinions on "morality", not everyone's. Theirs is different.
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Actually, my argument
does accomodate everyone's viewpoint. Let every person determine their own moral code, base on their own moral, religious, and philosophical beliefs, and live their lives according to that moral code without coercion from some outside entity. I absolutely believe that every individual on this earth should be permitted the freedom to do that without interference. You, me, Iranian Muslims, Indians and Pakistanis. I would vehemently defend any individual's right to believe anything they like, to express that belief, and live their lives based on that belief. I extend this to the two boys who were executed. They should have been permitted to establish their own moral code, and live based on that code.
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In America, the laws on the books demonize the use of marijuana. It's considered dirty, disgusting, only for people who waste their life in a haze. In holland (and other countries), it's perfectly normal. No one is looked down upon for it, no one is considered a waste of human life just because of it. Because THERE, that's the way it is. To some people here, it's disgusting and shameful that they toelrate it- not to even mention the prostitution. There, it's the law to allow it.
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They are indeed more enlightened when it comes to certain personal freedoms in those countries. That the laws in the two places treat the same behavior differently seems to me to indicate that morality is not necessarily the same thing as legality.
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We're not trying to rain on anyone's gay pride parade, but who is right? Not me. Not you. Not them. The area's residents make the law, and that's all there is to it.
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Well, that's not exactly true. The laws in Iran are determined by a relatively small group of religious leaders, not by the residents. In any case laws are a measure of popular opinion, or a measure of political power, but not really a measure of morality.
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You can try to educate, you can try to make change, and that's great... but you have to also accept that they live by THEIR moral code, not yours.
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Oh I accept it. I disagree with their actions, but I accept that they live by their moral code. As should everyone. Including those two teenagers, victims of honor killing. Which is, by the way illegal in India, a law that is often not enforced because magistrates and local law enforcement officials disagree with it.
For some 400 years slavery was legal in the United states. That doesn't make it moral. For a good part of that time, it was legal in some places, but not others. In Rwanda in the early 90's genocide was legal. That doesn't make it moral. A society's laws are not the ultimate arbiter of what is moral.
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
What I'd like to make clear is that in order to keep the First Amendment protection of freedom of speech and religion, then I cannot say what they decide for their religious offerings as needing to be changed, to me that's an equal censorship and is offending to fundamentalist or even liberal religious followers. In the Gay Teen in Fundamentalist treatment program thread if it is not allowing the parents to do such an action then IMO their First Amendment rights are being violated.
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Well, I would say that it's well within our first amendment rights to express disagreement with another's actions. That's what freedom of speech is about. And while it's certainly not illegal for the parents to do what they did, they are interfereing with the boy's being able to make his own moral decisions regarding his sexuality. Again, morality separate from legality.