View Single Post
Old 07-11-2005, 09:00 PM   #156 (permalink)
host
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmithee
.......You talk repeatedly about the conservative us vs. them menality, yet someone hardly conservative above just said that pan somehow supported the war. Because pan dared to disagree (that dissent thing you seem to find so great), he/she was instantly able to be labelled a war supporter (and probably also the dreaded conservative).

Again, if you fail to see the opperation of a liberal bloc in opposition to the neocon bloc, it is because you are purposely keeping your eyes closed.

(and btw, if asked for proof, I can actually provide this).
alansmithee, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was not clear to you that the questions and examples in my last post here were directed solely at you, with a "courtesy" comment that was directed to three of you, influencing Pan, I'm presuming, to misunderstand that I was posting to you.
I have now quoted my comments in my last post, and removed all quote boxes that were included in my previous post, and marked your name with "BOLD" html tags. Kindly re-read it and respond in the interest of providing your insight. My experience is, that by re-posting the links and excerpts that
are displayed in my post, near the bottom of this page:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=91489&page=2

I am able to discourage further assertions by the same poster, anyway, that Saddam possessed WMD and had operational WMD programs in early 2003, and that Bush and members of his administration did not lie to or mislead the American people to an extremely troubling degree, about the WMD threat, and about what the administration knew pre-9/11 about even the idea that terrorists had the potential to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings.

alansmithee, the bottom line is: does the "quality" of an argument, i.e., posting linked quotes from the White House that the president no longer believes that WMD will be found in Iraq or in places like Syria, quotes from Powell and Rice two years before the invasion of Iraq, that Saddam has "not reconstituted WMD programs", and that the "no fly zones" were successful in preventing Saddam from even posing a "threat to his neighbors", have the effect that I perceive, by at least diminishing assertions similar to the ones that Marvelous Mary made in her post in my linked example page, just a day or two ago?

If you agree that it has that effect. is that the extent of documentation that you believe it will take to influence people who are more "Bush" than Bush, about these issues, to at least "stand down" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by host
<h3>alansmithee,</h3> I hope that you, Pan, and roachboy will forgive me for "barging" in on your "back and forth", but I would like to satisfy my curiousity, and maybe reach a greater understanding about my inability to understand how you, and say... Marvelous Mary, gain and hold your convictions.

The following is a post from Marvelous Mary, which is a response to zen_tom:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=91489&page=2
(Near bottom of page)

zen_tom makes (IMO, anway) the easily defended statement that ,"Iraq didn't have any weapons of mass destruction and the US waging a war based on that issue", and Marvelous Mary countered with a reference to "UN SCR 687", and an article from a consrvative Harvard student periodical that offers it's own analysis of Charles Duelfer's 10/2004 WMD report, that is intended to persuade that the U.S. was justified in invading Iraq, and that Bush did not mislead, because.....only the U.S. administrations reaction to 9/11 intervened to blunt Saddam's "waiting game", whereby, when the U.N. sanctions ended, he would have put his dormant WMD programs in high gear, and emerged as a
menace to the world.. ... (my comments continue below MM's post....)


Marvelous Mary ended her response to zen_tom with:

<h3>alansmithee,</h3> as the self appointed, repetitive poster of the overwhelming evidence that Saddam did not possess WMD, and that key members of the Bush administration were either reported, in 2001 and 2002, to either agree
that he had not reconsituted his WMD programs, or are directly quoted as saying that, along with WH press secretary McClellan's Jan. 12, 2005 admission to the press that Bush agreed that no WMD were found, or were likely to be found, based on the Duelfer report, in areas outside of Iraq, such as Syria, and my recently posted quotes from Bush and Rice that:



and that Bush had claimed that:
In late January 2003, in his SOTU address, more than a month after Iraq had presented it's data and inventory of WMD and WMD programs to the U.N.,
Bush claimed that Iraq's WMD inventory, as a justification for war, included:

.....I am confident that it diminishes the credibility of any individual of any ideology to disagree that Bush misled and exaggerated to the point that he either could be called a liar, or incredibly misinformed to the degree that he was incompetent or inept.

Even with this body of formidible evidence, I still find myself having to post it again and again on these threads. The trend is that resistance to the evidence is shrinking.

My question to you is, in the face of this evidence, why do people still defend Bush with such anger, as MM did, and what do you think that it will take, as
far as evidence, if an admission from Bush himself is not sufficient enough for posts such as MM's to cease here? Why is is so difficult to process such straightforward, well docum
ented arguments?
host is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360