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roachboy · 06-10-2005, 07:59 AM

few actions have done the bushcause more consistent harm than the setting up and maintaining of the legal black hole symbolized by guantanomo, but also including the outsourcing of torture, illegal transfers, routine abuse of prisoners in the name of counter-terrorism (an old rationalization)..because the americans are trying to present themselves as defending "the rule of law" and "civilization" even (in the world of vagueness that is bushspeak, there really are no claims too absurd to be made about the righteousness of the Cause) against "terrorists" who by definition operate outside "the Law"....

the bush administration seems to have an uncanny knack for creating situations that legitimate the most cynical possible interpretations of their actions.

for a while after 911, independence hall in philadelphia was something of an armed camp. so you could look at the symbols of american freedom from a distance, but you couldnt enter.

the legal black hole is infintely worse.

even if it were possible to accept alansmithee's arguments about the need for such actions (which obvious i do not accept), you would think that the symbolic damage being done by them would at some point become a problem---in other words, i can imagine supporting the bushites and still finding the entire legal balck hole to be a problem.
i am surprised sometimes to see how few conservatives seem to favor shutting down gitmo on symbolic grounds, since it is their ideological position that is reduced/impacted directly by it, by the theater of it.
you would think that a kind of self-preservation reflex would kick in at some point. but no.

i do not expect that the human rights problems, the legal problems, the fact of torture would sway the right--the ideology seems to afford even less space for thinking about those arrested BUT NEVER CHARGED, NEVER TRIED but tortured/abused anyway (simply by being at guantanomo, and on into explcit abuses) as human beings WHO ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY and who can only be proven guilty if they are CHARGED AND ALLOWED A TRIAL, any more than that ideology provides a space for thinking about the poor and uninsured in the states as human beings whose quality of life is significantly diminished by the present healt care system, or of thinking about class divisions as they impact on those disadvantaged by them, etc.

06-10-2005, 07:59 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	few actions have done the bushcause more consistent harm than the setting up and maintaining of the legal black hole symbolized by guantanomo, but also including the outsourcing of torture, illegal transfers, routine abuse of prisoners in the name of counter-terrorism (an old rationalization)..because the americans are trying to present themselves as defending "the rule of law" and "civilization" even (in the world of vagueness that is bushspeak, there really are no claims too absurd to be made about the righteousness of the Cause) against "terrorists" who by definition operate outside "the Law".... the bush administration seems to have an uncanny knack for creating situations that legitimate the most cynical possible interpretations of their actions. for a while after 911, independence hall in philadelphia was something of an armed camp. so you could look at the symbols of american freedom from a distance, but you couldnt enter. the legal black hole is infintely worse. even if it were possible to accept alansmithee's arguments about the need for such actions (which obvious i do not accept), you would think that the symbolic damage being done by them would at some point become a problem---in other words, i can imagine supporting the bushites and still finding the entire legal balck hole to be a problem. i am surprised sometimes to see how few conservatives seem to favor shutting down gitmo on symbolic grounds, since it is their ideological position that is reduced/impacted directly by it, by the theater of it. you would think that a kind of self-preservation reflex would kick in at some point. but no. i do not expect that the human rights problems, the legal problems, the fact of torture would sway the right--the ideology seems to afford even less space for thinking about those arrested BUT NEVER CHARGED, NEVER TRIED but tortured/abused anyway (simply by being at guantanomo, and on into explcit abuses) as human beings WHO ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY and who can only be proven guilty if they are CHARGED AND ALLOWED A TRIAL, any more than that ideology provides a space for thinking about the poor and uninsured in the states as human beings whose quality of life is significantly diminished by the present healt care system, or of thinking about class divisions as they impact on those disadvantaged by them, etc. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite