Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phage
Just because it costs more at the moment should not make it immoral.
|
if there's any chance that we're putting an innocent person to death, then it's immoral.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phage
These studies are by no means unanimous, but we can intuitively predict some problems with a maximum punishment of life imprisonment.
|
can we? you're right, they aren't unanimous, but you're predictions are rather far fetched and silly. yeah, someone imprisoned for life can kill another inmate, but so can someone serving 10-15 for drug dealing. consider how many people are currently serving life terms. and how many prisoner muders do you hear of? my guess is very few. i'll admit right now i've not looked into numbers, nor am i going to. if you wish to really make this claim, you can back it up with evidence, otherwise, anecdotal evidence of not hearing about many (and my assumption is that many/most prison murders is from prison gangs) is better than your hypothosis.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phage
Someone imprisoned for life still has the possibility of escape, or can quite often attack fellow prisoners or jailers as there is nothing worse to be done to them.
|
well, attack fellow prisoners and it's possible that there will be retaliation. attack a jailer and you'll end a) getting the shit kicked out of you on a regular basis, and b) solitary, and any other nastiness that they can throw at you. you may be alive, but they can make you wish you weren't.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phage
For instance, if both kidnapping and murder have the penalty of life imprisonment then what reason is there for a kidnapper to ever let a victim go?
|
well, for one, death penatly isn't a given. i did a quick google and found that the under the federal law, death penalty can be asked for in a kidnapping, but it's not a given. murder the kidnappee and you're sure to get teh death penatly sought. treat the kidnapped person well, release them alive, and it's likely you can get away without the death penalty if caught. one way guaruntees it, the other reduces the likelyhood of it. if you're gonna get caught, do you want to make your situation better or worse?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phage
I am not saying that I think revenge is a good motive, but it is something that many people feel the need for. It has been noted as a reason before, so I mentioned it.
|
which is why i mentioned the cost...
now for some other info on it being a deterrence (which is probalby one of the most important aspects in deciding if the DP is right or wrong)...
Quote:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...id=167#STUDIES
Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas. Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates. (45 Crime and Delinquency 481-93 (1999)).
-------------------------------------------
Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty: Another Examination of OklahomaÕs Return to Capital Punishment. In this study, author William Bailey speculated that if executions had a deterrent effect in Oklahoma, it would be observable by comparing murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder, such as felony-murder, stranger robbery-related killings, stranger non-felony murder, and argument-related killings, before and after the resumption of executions. Bailey examined the period between 1989 and 1991 for total killings and sub-types of killing. After controlling for a number of variables, Bailey found that there was no evidence for a deterrent effect. He did, however, find that there was a significant increase in stranger killings and non-felony stranger killings after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium. (36 Criminology 711-33 (1998)).
------------------------------------------
Effects of an Execution on Homicides in California. Author Ernie Thompson examined criminal homicides in Los Angeles before and after CaliforniaÕs execution of Robert Harris in 1992, the stateÕs first execution after a 25-year moratorium. Thompson found slight increases in homicides during the eight months following the execution. (3 Homicide Studies 129-150 (1999)).
---------------------------------------------
The Geography of Execution: The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America. Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides and violent crime in 293 pairs of counties. Counties were matched in pairs based on geographic location, regional context, historical development, demographic and economic variables. The pairs shared a contiguous border, but differed on use of capital punishment. The authors found no support for a deterrent effect of capital punishment at the county level comparing matched counties inside and outside states with capital punishment, with and without a death row population, and with and without executions. The authors did find higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties. (Rowman and Littlefiled Publishers, Lanham, MD (1997))
|
Quote:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...id=12&did=1176
(this is linked from the previous page)
not gonna post the whole thing, the gist of it is that comparative models about whehter the DP deters murder consistently show the DP has no effect on murder rates, while econometeric models are inconsistent in showing a deterence (because they don't really model the real world well, if i skimmed it correctly)
|
Quote:
WARNING! PDF FILE AHEAD!!!
http://preprints.stat.ucla.edu/396/JELS.pap.pdf
Abstract: A number of papers have recently appeared claiming to show that
in the United States executions deter serious crime. There are many
statistical problems with the data analyses reported. This paper addresses
the problem of “influence,” which occurs when a very small
and atypical fraction of the data dominate the statistical results. The
number of executions by state and year is the key explanatory variable,
and most states in most years execute no one. A very few states in particular
years execute more than 5 individuals. Such values represent
about 1% of the available observations. Re-analyses of the existing
data are presented showing that claims of deterrence are a statistical
artifact of this anomalous 1%.
|
anyone know what 'aggrivating factors' are? for the four states that have kidnapping as a crime punishable by death, it is 'aggravated kidnapping' or 'kidnapping with aggravating factors.'
i looked at the information at
www.prodeathpenalty.com. and not surprisingly, they have some abstracts to articles posted that say there is a deterrent effect.
based on what i've read on both sites, i have to say that i don't think there is a deterrent effect. the pro-death site mentioned that:
Quote:
Opponents of the death penalty argue that:
* those contemplating criminal activities do not rationally weigh the benefits and costs of their actions,
* the costs associated with obtaining a death penalty conviction are larger than the costs associated with providing lifetime imprisonment,
* in a world of imperfect information, innocent individuals may be convicted and executed before exonerating information is discovered, and
* the death penalty has disproportionately been applied in cases in which the defendant is nonwhite or the victim is white.
|
and the first star i think is very accurate. if i were committing a crime, i would consider what i was gonna get out of it (a tv?) versus whether or not i would get caught. i don't care if it would be probation, 2 years or 10 years. i also wouldn't differentiate between life w/out parole and the DP. it's 'can i get away with this or not?' the DP won't deter me, life in jail is the same as losing my life, but i have to live till i die naturally knowing that i threw my life away.