hannukah harry

i don't like turnips.

we aren't talking about the west's development. we're talking about human development (which does encompass the west, but not the west alone). if you decide you'd like to be less vague and discuss exactly what you have a problem with in my previoius post, please let me know. i'd be happy to discuss it.


hey <b>jorgelito</b>,

i think i do understand the point you were trying to make. my point, which probably didn't come across (i didn't state it specifically and looking back doubt anyone would read into it), is basically that you're drawing an arbitrary line line saying that christianity did all this. i'm saying don't draw that line. if you look at civilizations prior to and contemporary with early christianity, you'll see all of these things too. christianity has just extended these things you brought up, they weren't new to the world before that. i realize you didn't say that these other influences weren't there, but by seemingly ignoring them and placing credit for these thigns solely on the shoulders of christianity, you're depicting christianity as existing within a vacuum (in my opinion), which i think is a matter of bias based on your beliefs, rather than looking at the big picture.

and i don't disagree of the influence that christianity had on art. but the subject of the art is related to christianity, the style isn't. and the style is the bigger influence on modern art than the subject matter was. the church definatly helped in that by having commissioned the art and preserving it, but that's no different than other religions/civilizations.

monks definatly made major contributions to maintaining the knowledge of the past. while europe stagnated and declined, the monks copied books by hand, preserving that knowledge for future generations. but how is that different than the egyptians creating the library at alexandria? and teh preserving of knowledge, while important, is not a christian influence on society (unless teh monks only allowed that knowledge to be learned by people in the church or were selective in what they saved).

i like teh gulf war joke (nice connection with teh bush quote)... just since i didn't realize you meant it as one i felt the need to assume you were serious. but on the topic of war, christianity didn't do anything new. they just continued on a tradtion of warfare. most ancient cultures called upon god for help in war, used their gods as a way to rally the troops (the enemy is an affront to their gods and the gods want them destroyed). some of the people who warred in gods name believed in the rightiousness of it, that it was a war for god/s, while others i'm sure were more motivated by power and increased lands. in fact, i'd bet that most of the conquerors in history were at least as interested in the increased lands, money and power, as they were in doing it for god, if not more so for the power. the crusades are interesting because some of them were mainly about god, others seem not to be nearly as god oriented. a large part of them wasn't so much to spread the religion as to protect christianity from the increasing threat of islam. so not exactly something new, just on a larger scale than previously seen.

again, colonialism and imperialism isn't anything new. one of the biggest influences on early christianity was rome, and rome had a long history of colonization and imperialism. whether the colonization of the 'new world' and africa was religously motivated (which i think it wasn't) or not doesn't really matter. it's nothing new. if anything, my opinion is that the america's and africa were colonized to increase europes wealth and power and influence. if there was a real religous motivation for it there would have been much more of an attempt at converting the natives than destroying and enslaving them (spain was the one real exception).

of couse the church had a lot of influence. in those days religion pervaded everything. the kings were kings by divine right, social life of the peasents often revolved around teh church. it was everywhere. but just because the church was there and played a big part in daily life doesn't mean that it was the motivation for why people did everything they did.

i won't argue that christianity hasn't had a big influence on western civilization because it has. but there's more to human history than western civ. (i would still argue that it has had a big influence on human history, but not nearly as big of one when mixed in with non-western civs). but it's influence is based on that which was before it. it's just the next player in the game of life. these things you brought up were around before christianity and will be around after christianity. christianity has just continued on these traditions/practices. and even then, it may have been an influence in subject, but not in style (art) and in reason for war (but not in the tehcnological advancement or strategy).

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer