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Originally Posted by bingle
But my point is exactly the opposite: A great number of theists and atheists depend on proof of the existence of God. That is what dragged me into this discussion in the first place, the mischaracterization of this point of view. I'll reiterate: There are four (or five) groups: Those who accept proof and believe, those who accept proof and thus do not believe, those who don't accept proof and believe, and those who don't accept proof and don't believe. You're putting all atheists under the last group, when in fact I've never met anyone who felt that way. So basically you're grossly miscategorizing and dismissing not only every Atheist in the world, but the entire religious intellectual position going back to Saint Augustine, and the basis for the Catholic Church; quite an arrogant act!
In fact, it's quite possible to be a rational Atheist or a rational Theist. That's not the position of fundamentalist churches, but it doesn't change the validity of the position.
Bingle
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I don't want to belabour the point, but I think that you are incorrect in your definitions.
there are basically two:
1) Those who believe or disbelieve because of faith.
2) those who believe or disbelieve because of proof (which by the way, contains all four of your definitions)
and again I'll re-iterate: I am not dismissing any atheist. they believe what they do. Intellectual position notwithstanding, they are not accepting any proof that God doesn't exist. They are basing their position on faith. Just as the most august Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church does, or Islam, or Judaism base there doctrines on faith.
furthermore, this act of faith is not irrational. It is quite rational from the perspective of their paradigm. Faith does not require proof. It just requires belief, thus it is sustainable, and inpugnable.
As d*d stated earlier, empirical proof must by definition adhere to the natural universe from which we can perform the observation (measurement) and is therefore limited to that which is created. If the creator is by definition extende to outside that which is created, all those who await empirical evidence of God, may go on waiting for eternity, and therefore have their belief remained unresolved. They remain unknowing, or Agnostic.
I hardly think that it is arrogant to think this. simply organized.