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crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 02:06 PM

Ok, I read through a lot of this, but it has not been established that he knew it would happen. The Phalangists weren't just some random militia, they were the sovereign Lebanese military. The IDF was in the process of pulling out of Lebanon, and the Phalange was the military that would inevitably fill the vacuum.

"To think nothing would occur sending in the Phalange to a camp full of Palestinians, whom they'd been fighting for 7 long years, is just preposterous. "

Israel's civilian population has been under attack by terrorists in a series of brutal massacres now for over 2 years, but there have been no massacres of Palestinians. The Phalange was a professional military force that had trained with the Israelis. The IDF assumed that they would conduct themselves as a military should.
Also, if a massacre was so obvious, then why did no one else think to mention it before it happened either? No one did. The Phalangists had carried out other operations professionally. To assume that they would go crazy and massacre people is racist- like I said above, not expecting the same standards anyone does from anyone else. I am not trivializing the massacre, obviously- but if anyone should be prosecuted, it is the Phalangists themselves!
Sharon does bear indirect responsibility, as the military commander in the area, it did happen under his jurisdiction. But if he had known, why on earth would he have let it happen? He was and is well-aware of the intense scrutiny the world watches Israel with. Why would he allow something to happen that would for a long time destroy his political career, tar his country's reputation and allow innocent people to be killed? Israel had everything to lose from this, and nothing to gain. The IDF has never engaged in massacres, and has a strict purity of arms code. What the legal cases found was that he should have known- it was an error in judgement. It was one that all the journalists, the UN, and everyone else made too. It is wrong to say that he knew this was happening.

You say it was obvious because the Phalangists had been engaged in fighting with the PLO for 7 years. Well in case you didn't notice, there are tons of ongoing conflicts in the middle east- and the only way to assume that it is natural for that to result in a massacre of innocents is if you are racist to begin with, and do not consider arabs to be of the same moral status as the rest of humanity. The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint in their short history, and I don't see why the same shouldn't be expected of everyone else, especially when it's a professional army (as opposed to PLO terrorists, who commited many atrocities as you said), and the legitimate and sovereign military power in Lebanon. It was their country, and Israel was pulling out. The massacre was clearly barbaric, and a disaster. But Sharon did not know it was going to happen- you can attribute this to poor judgement, but there is no reason to believe that it was pre-meditated, when the 3 legal inquiries all found him only indirectly responsible. Again, the burden of proof is on you, if you wish to say that all 3 of these cases, which exhumed the facts far more exhaustively than you or I have, are all wrong. If you assume despite the findings of others based on all the evidence, that Sharon is guilty, then it is only because you want him to be guilty.

05-18-2003, 02:06 PM	#49 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Ok, I read through a lot of this, but it has not been established that he knew it would happen. The Phalangists weren't just some random militia, they were the sovereign Lebanese military. The IDF was in the process of pulling out of Lebanon, and the Phalange was the military that would inevitably fill the vacuum. "To think nothing would occur sending in the Phalange to a camp full of Palestinians, whom they'd been fighting for 7 long years, is just preposterous. " Israel's civilian population has been under attack by terrorists in a series of brutal massacres now for over 2 years, but there have been no massacres of Palestinians. The Phalange was a professional military force that had trained with the Israelis. The IDF assumed that they would conduct themselves as a military should. Also, if a massacre was so obvious, then why did no one else think to mention it before it happened either? No one did. The Phalangists had carried out other operations professionally. To assume that they would go crazy and massacre people is racist- like I said above, not expecting the same standards anyone does from anyone else. I am not trivializing the massacre, obviously- but if anyone should be prosecuted, it is the Phalangists themselves! Sharon does bear indirect responsibility, as the military commander in the area, it did happen under his jurisdiction. But if he had known, why on earth would he have let it happen? He was and is well-aware of the intense scrutiny the world watches Israel with. Why would he allow something to happen that would for a long time destroy his political career, tar his country's reputation and allow innocent people to be killed? Israel had everything to lose from this, and nothing to gain. The IDF has never engaged in massacres, and has a strict purity of arms code. What the legal cases found was that he should have known- it was an error in judgement. It was one that all the journalists, the UN, and everyone else made too. It is wrong to say that he knew this was happening. You say it was obvious because the Phalangists had been engaged in fighting with the PLO for 7 years. Well in case you didn't notice, there are tons of ongoing conflicts in the middle east- and the only way to assume that it is natural for that to result in a massacre of innocents is if you are racist to begin with, and do not consider arabs to be of the same moral status as the rest of humanity. The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint in their short history, and I don't see why the same shouldn't be expected of everyone else, especially when it's a professional army (as opposed to PLO terrorists, who commited many atrocities as you said), and the legitimate and sovereign military power in Lebanon. It was their country, and Israel was pulling out. The massacre was clearly barbaric, and a disaster. But Sharon did not know it was going to happen- you can attribute this to poor judgement, but there is no reason to believe that it was pre-meditated, when the 3 legal inquiries all found him only indirectly responsible. Again, the burden of proof is on you, if you wish to say that all 3 of these cases, which exhumed the facts far more exhaustively than you or I have, are all wrong. If you assume despite the findings of others based on all the evidence, that Sharon is guilty, then it is only because you want him to be guilty. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.