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Old 04-16-2005, 05:30 AM   #34 (permalink)
pan6467
Lennonite Priest
 
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcow
pan6467 I didn't want to get into this, but I am finding it difficult to stay silent.

We agree, at least, in what the problem is. The majority of individuals and the government are spending like there is no tomorrow and the US culture only breeds this behaviour. However that is mostly where the similarities between our opinions end.
It's a start if 2 opposites see the same problem and are able to converse in rational terms. It shows compromise maybe possible and a solution can be worked on. I would rather you admit you agree on some rather than just argue the points you disagree on.

I thorougly respect you for this.


Quote:
I can kinda see your points here but this is not the root of the problem. Yes, people do feel like it is everybody else that is ruining everything and they are just doing their best and it is not their fault when they are in fact contributing to the problem. Yes, the rich are getting tax cuts, but so is everyone else. Just because the rich have more does not mean they should be taxed proportionally more than anyone else. These are the people that are investing in companies, creating jobs, innovating new ideas and driving the economy. You think all their money is just sitting around in a big money bin like Scrooge McDuck? Please....
I'll give you a good example, I don't make much and I do live fairly well within my means tho. My cell phone doesn't recieve a signal in my apartment, so I called SBC for the cheapest landline available. They offered 30 calls a month for $2.95 monthly connection fee. Cool...... HOWEVER... $12 is added in taxes so my monthly bill is now $14.95 (no long distance, no pay per calls, no caller ID, no voice mail, nothing 30 calls (incoming and outgoing) a month and .08 cents a phone call over the 30.

So I am paying $12 in taxes on a $3 phone bill...... how is that fair to the poor? How can a person making less than me, who has a phone as a sole way of communication (and to say it's a luxury is BS because you need one to get a job, get any kind of credit, even just emergencies...). So me or this poor person paying 400% in taxes on our phone service is ok, yet the rich (someone making more than $5 million/year) paying maybe 5% more in income taxes is unfair.... I guarantee the poor person, and I miss that $12 far more than that rich guy would miss another 5% of his income.

What are they investing in? Where is the growth industries in America? If there is this great influx of investment in our country why are we continuing to go deeper into debt, while wages continue to go down?

Please note my answers to this next section will appear in this quote in GREEN and italicized.

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I don't agree with ANY of this.
1. What on earth does a tiny percentage of the population's wages have to do with the threat of inflation.

How can you justify saying that paying your workers a $1 more an hour increases your cost when the upper management is making more % wise over their employees than ever before...... In other words... paying say 1,000 workers $1 more an hour ($40,000/wk.... $2,080,000/yr) is costing the company more than that $5 million dollar bonus the CEO gets, those $50,000 bonuses VP's get...... We're expected to believe that $1 an hour grants them to raise their prices while not cutting the CEO's, and VP's pay???? Plus, the workers have a little more money in their pockets, to spend, to save to work with.

Also, that very tiny percentage controls the vast majority of the wealth.


2. Yes people need to educate themselves to be productive in society but people need to have personal responsibility. They have to realize that they need to get their priorities straight and go educate themselves instead of buying those 20 inch rims and the newest cell phone. Social programs are not going to teach them this. They are going to teach them they don't have to fend for themselves and that they can rely on the rest of society to drag them along.

I didn't say social programs would help educate them, some may.... but it is a far better policy to help give hope to people and a belief that they can succeed, by giving small business loans, by allowing the poor access to universities and colleges without going heavily into debt, than to offer low waged jobs that go nowhere, college educations that have them maxed out on loans, and the prospect of no future. I would much rather placate the masses by giving them hope and faith than to point fingers and say, "fuck you get a job at McDonald's" work your ass off and get nowhere in life.... and that my friend, is what is happening at an alarming rate in this country.

Our country has not been so divided and hate filled since the Civil war and we better find some way towork together and solve the problems. Instead of pointing fingers and saying the poor are lazy and the rich pay too much in taxes. Same as, we need to stop pointing fingers and say the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, so fuck them. ETC.....We need to work on a solution everyone can live with instead of a solution that just 1 side can and fuck the other side.


3. No no no NO. Outsourcing jobs and cheap imports forces the United States to retool it's work force to actually be valuable and productive in the world. If we subsidize these people we take money from the industries that are actually productive and give it to the people who are not. This brings the whole country down.

[I]Bullshit, Outsourcing jobs and cheaper labor continues the downward spiral at a faster rate. Let's use Canton, Ohio for example. Hoover closes shop and moves out for cheaper labor so that the "company" can show better profits. However, the employees that made $15/hr are now forced to make $8 yet pay the loans off they took out when they made $15.

Property taxes in the rich areas go up to make up for the lost income of the Hoover plant. Property values in middle class areas bottom out, thereby those people have no way to sell their house to pay the loans. Schools suffer, police, fire, all services get cut..... and again city income taxes and property taxes keep going up so that the city can run....... so the people who lost their jobs and are making far less are heavily in debt and cannot sell out just to break even...... it's a bottomless pit and the foreclosures are skyrocketing.

SO again it is fair that these workers get this situation handed to them, while the company itself goes overseas pays those workers $1.25, increases their profits and the executives make millions in bonuses and salary raises....

That is a true and factual acount of what is happening in North East Ohio.... They are not cutting jobs and closing because they can't afford to pay these people, they are moving out to increase profits and salaries of executives....[/I]



4. Again, personal responsibility. 2/3 of the population is overweight and a lot of them are happy that way. If people took responsibility for their own well being instead of relying on the "system" to take care of them they would eat right, exercise and try to keep themselves as healthy as possible. If this happened the cost of health care would be much much lower and they could save time and money for themselves. Reliance on a system only makes it acceptible for people to be unhealthy and makes things worse. I know there are people who do actually get sick for circumstances out of their control and everyone should have coverage, but that is not the country we live in today.

Again, bullshit..... would you rather watch family members that have cancer or some other disease spend every penny they have because insurance ran out and they have to buy outrageously priced meds, and go through excrutiating pain.... Come on.... fucking bullshit.... I'll use the same argument you do for tax cuts for the rich.... These people worked lifetimes to make money and to live a little bit of the American dream and you would rather have them lose it all, while facing death than to offer them a healthcare system that protects their hard work?

You take out what companies pay for their employees healthcare, you take away the payments for the meds, the premiums and the deductibles and guess what..... everyone has far far more money to spend, save, whatever. To say that a human's life is not worth trying to save because they cannot pay for healthcare or to say that someone should lose everything because they are sick.... is disgusting and very hypocritical of these "pro-life" religious right GOPs. If life is so valuable, then why are they so fast to take away every penny a person has for life saving medical procedures....

And we won't discuss how a universal healthcare system (or a system that is on a sliding scale, would promote healthier and happier workers that could maybe possibly be more effective....
Quote:
Honestly, do you think this is EVER going to happen? Yeah it might straighten things out, but humans are too bitter, selfish and unforgiving for people to even fathom this scenario
.

I offered many different scenarios.... one of them or a combination or something fair has to be found or we are done.


Quote:
Again, we agree on this at least. But people need to get their collective heads out of their collective asses and realize they need to take care of themselves instead of whining and demanding the rest of us take care of them.
Ok, when the debts come due, you have no middle calss anymore and a populace heavily indebt. Our economy is built one CONSUMPTION...... when people can no longer consume at the rate they are, or to a healthy degree.... and can only consume necessities..... guess what..... ALL INDUSTRY GOES DOWN THE SHITTER.

The world's economy is built on the USA's consumption when we can no longer consume, unless one of these third world countries can pick it up.... the world will go into depression.

And guess what, the debts are coming due.

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On a side note, I realize I probably just infuriated more than half of TFP but I'm sick of hearing the argument that everyone needs to take care of everyone else. It's your life, take responsiblity. I'm 22 and have my own place, my own car and my own job. I payed for my own education from merit scholarships and work. I have no debt and I take care of my body with exercise and proper diet. I don't expect anyone to give me anything I haven't earned, neither should anyone else.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna submit this
At 22, it sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders and I applaud that, wish I had taken advantage of the oppurtunities I had had when I was 22.

(BTW I blame noone but myself for my mistakes, and except for help with school and grants (that are available already) to start my recovery center, I ask for no help from anyone, to pay my bills. But I suppose asking for scholarships (even though I am a Dean's list student), affordable loans that I can repay and private and public grant monies that are already avaible to others.... makes me a leech in your eyes..... even though there would be no way for me to afford school, let alone my recovery center without the help.)

So because you take care of your body and exercise.... if you get (God forbid and I truly wish none of this upon you) ALS, or any form of MS, if you have a child and it is born with CP, or your wife gets breast cancer..... and in any one of those situations your insurance runs out, the meds send you far into debt..... you feel you are the one responsible for it all ..... God Bless you for that..... but unfortunately reality is you are in a very very small minority in that attitude and even the rich use all the government resources they can, plus they can afford better health insurance (guess that's why those Hoover executives moved the plants overseas so they could boost their bonuses and salaries).

Talk to me in 20 years when an accident happens or you get "downsized" and you watch everything you worked for disappear.

On a personal note, like I said, I thoroughly respect you for your opinions and DO NOT EVER KEEP QUIET FOR FEAR OF PISSING SOMEONE OFF. You are passionate at a young age, intelligent and have some good points, I honor those, may not agree, but that's not personal..... RESPECT AND HONOR I HAVE FOR YOU IS PERSONAL .

I am glad you did submit this post, because it opened dialect and as I said at the beginning, we both see the same problem (maybe different reasons) but we are able to open a dialect and express our views and perhaps utilize both sides to find a fair and equitable solution for both sides. WE ARE BEING FAR MORE MATURE AND RESPONSIBLE THAN THE PEOPLE IN POLITICS RIGHT NOW WHO REFUSE TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE OTHER SIDE MAY HAVE 1 GOOD POINT.

In our little community here at least we are getting to see both sides and to have dialect ....... it may not help the world but it helps every single one of us that reads this and learns from both sides.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Last edited by pan6467; 04-16-2005 at 05:33 AM..
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