Thread: TFP Annoyances
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Old 04-04-2005, 10:15 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosenose
Yup, Russian Communists = bad, Vietnamese Communists = Good.

The more things change, the more things stay the same....

<img=src:> http://www.1stcavmedic.com/Jane_Fond...from_Hanoi.jpg </img>

I've done enough research to know who Tom Hayden is...and to know that committing felonies is wrong. "YMMV".
moosenose, have you ever examined what you "know" to identify how you came to know it? It just doesn't seem that you have come to your conclusions from a personal study of the details of the US involvement in SE Asia in the '60s and '70s.

You posted a "Hanoi Jane" talking point worthy of Rush/Hannity.

Your response to whether you did any research that you could post, other than talking points is quoted above.

It seems that your answer consists of a simplistic anti communist sarcasm,
followed by a cliche, a link to a photo of Jane and Tom from a Vietnam era medical unit's website (no surprise, they were married to each other for a number of years, but had been divorced for many years when Hayden wrote
the piece on Fonda that I quoted).

Then you bashed the messenger, Tom Hayden, and you declared that "you know that committing felonies is wrong", claiming the moral high ground for yourself. You ended with an abreviation of a cliche, "YMMV".

You have a very strong opinion that does not stand up to the facts, and you
offer a link to a photo to defend your point. Hayden was divorced from Fonda for many years when he wrote to defend her motives for her actions in Hanoi last year. Isn't ironic that Nixon was impeached, resigned in disgrace, and that the succeeding president, Ford, felt so certain that Nixon would be indicted, that he quickly issued Nixon a blanket pardon, in advance of any indictment?

Nixon's chief of staff, HR Haldeman, his chief policy advisor, John Ehrlichman,
and his Atty. General, John Mitchell, all served time in federal prision for their
illegal actions while serving in Nixon's administration. Kissenger was deemed unfit to serve when oppointed by Bush to head the 9/11 commission two years ago, because of his performance in the Nixon administration during the Vietnam war. Future president GHW Bush was found to have lied to the UN general assembly when he denied Jane Fonda's disclosures about the Nixon plan to bomb dikes in North Vietnam that would have caused massive flooding and signifigant avoidable civilian casualties, followed by starvation,

You display a black or white perspective when confronted with a very complicated set of circumstances. The person that you attempt to smear and
label as treasonous, damaged her reputation protesting against and exposing a corrupt president and his administration that lied to the world, committed war crimes, and recorded many of their discussions for posterity.

Jane Fonda was not indicted, or pardoned. The authorities that she challenged and exposed, were! Your apparent anger and loathing are misplaced, and I doubt that there is any hope of persuading you to think any differently. Others will read our exchanges and draw their own conclusions.

The Watergate Conspirators:
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/players3.htm">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/players3.htm</a>

Quote:
<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Vietnam%27s_Dikes">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Vietnam%27s_Dikes</a>

Bombing of Vietnam's Dikes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Late in the Vietnam War, the United States of America engaged in a policy of systematically bombing a system of dikes in Vietnam's Red River Delta that protected several hundred thousand people from having their land overrun by water.

The threat of the bombing was used as a leveraging tool against the North Vietnamese to encourage them to accept a proposed truce. The Red River Delta provided the majority of the food to North Vietnam, and the destruction of the farmland and the people within would have starved the nation's population and army. Under this threat, in September, 1972, North Vietnam agreed to drop their demand that President Nguyễn Văn Thiệu of South Vietnam be overthrown. Thiệu rejected the treaty, not wanting to leave North Vietnamese troops in the south.

Many have referred to the bombing of the dikes as a war crime, although little was accomplished in the bombing before it ceased. Actress Jane Fonda is often credited with helping publicize the bombing, for which then U.N. Ambassador George H. W. Bush accused her of lying.

President Richard Nixon and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger discussed bombing dikes in a 1972 conversation, later published by journalist Daniel Ellsberg:

Nixon: We've got to quit thinking in terms of a three-day strike [in the Hanoi-Haiphong area]. We've got to be thinking in terms of an all-out bombing attack - which will continue until they - Now by all-out bombing attack, I am thinking about things that go far beyond. I'm thinking of the dikes, I'm thinking of the railroad, I'm thinking, of course, the docks.

Kissinger: I agree with you.

Nixon: We've got to use massive force.
Quote:
<a href="http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB104/index.htm">http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB104/index.htm</a>
Washington, D.C., 4 December 2003 - Newly declassified State Department documents obtained by the National Security Archive under the Freedom of Information Act show that in October 1976, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and high ranking U.S. officials gave their full support to the Argentine military junta and urged them to hurry up and finish the "dirty war" before the U.S. Congress cut military aid. A post-junta truth commission found that the Argentine military had "disappeared" at least 10,000 Argentines in the so-called "dirty war" against "subversion" and "terrorists" between 1976 and 1983; human rights groups in Argentina put the number at closer to 30,000.
Quote:
<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/12/politics/main532794.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/12/politics/main532794.shtml</a>
Kissinger helped coordinate American efforts in Vietnam, winning the Nobel peace prize in 1973 for negotiating the Paris treaty that ended American involvement in the conflict there. However, critics of Kissinger blame him for proposing controversial moves such as the Christmas bombing of Hanoi, and the secret bombing and subsequent invasion of Cambodia.

From 1973 to 1977, Kissinger also served as the nation's secretary of state.

Since leaving government, Kissinger has written several books and remained a popular speaker around the world, often appearing in television interviews as a commentator on foreign policy issues of the day.

However, criticism of Kissinger's policies in Southeast Asia and Latin America has not ebbed. In a series of articles in 2001, writer Christopher Hitchens accused Kissinger of war crimes for the bombing of Cambodia, for his failure to head off Indonesia's conquest of East Timor in 1975 and for his alleged support for a coup against Chilean president Salvador Allende on Sept. 11, 1973.

In April, when Kissinger was visiting London, a Spanish judge asked British authorities to deliver a warrant to question Kissinger over the disappearances of Spanish citizens under Latin American dictatorships. The warrant was not served.
Quote:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg</a>
<a href="http://www.ellsberg.net/">http://www.ellsberg.net/</a>

Daniel Ellsberg (born April 7, 1931) is a former military analyst who precipitated a national uproar in 1971 when he released the Pentagon Papers, the US military's account of activities in Vietnam, to The New York Times. His release of the Pentagon Papers succeeded in eroding public support for the war...........

Working again at Rand, Ellsberg managed to procure, photocopy, and return a large number of classified papers regarding the execution of the war. These documents later became collectively known as the Pentagon Papers. They revealed the knowledge, early on, that the war would not likely be won and that continuing the war would lead to many times more casualties than was admitted publicly. Further, the papers showed a deep cynicism towards the public and a disregard for the loss of life and injury suffered by soldiers and civilians.
Quote:
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5069430/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5069430/</a>
Tapes: Nixon too drunk
to discuss ’73 Arab-Israeli war
President couldn’t take a call from British PM
at time of high superpower tensions
Over 58,000 of our young troops died in Vietnam, moosenose; in a war that two presidents knew was unwinnable, yet they continued to send our troops to their deaths, and in the process, killed more than 2 million Vietnamese.
Jane Fonda was not the problem in that era, moosenose, Nixon and Kissenger were, and they ordered GHW Bush to lie to the world to refute the truth that Fonda attempted to expose. I know that communism was bad and America was good, but do the ends always justify the means, in your world?

Last edited by host; 04-04-2005 at 10:19 AM..
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