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meepa · 03-31-2005, 02:52 PM

I see a lot of speculating about Jefferson in this thread. Let me, as a historian, recommend "American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson" by Joseph J. Ellis. It's about 350 pages, but extremely accessible for non-historian types without over-simplifying a very complex man and history. If you're looking for blind hero-worship or non-stop scathing scandal, this book isn't for you. However, it is a balanced book that takes look at the most influential periods of his life and attempts to analyze him in a fashion that fits in-between two covers in a very manageable way.

Just some points of interest that I think some of the posters in this thread would like to know about Jefferson:

He was (some would say) hopelessly idealistic. He had a very difficult time reconciling his ideals he created in the abstract world with the troubles of reality. However, he was very good at "fooling himself" into ignoring these things. Yes he was contradictory. Ellis puts forth the argument that he wasn't a hypocrite so much as a man who had the "intellectual agility" to believe one thing at the same time as he lives in a world where he does another.

This is a big factor with the issue of slavery. Basically his stances were abhorrence of an unfortunate system that America was forced to inherit. He always claimed that slavery was inconsistent with republican ideals, but he was at a complete loss with what to do with a huge population of newly emancipated blacks which would have been in a real bind considering the prevalent attitudes concerning their inferiority.

As for the poster who questioned whether Jefferson "needed" his slaves... Well the answer is "yes", while he did have a large estate with a large slave population, he was consistently in debt for various reasons and felt forced to keep them for purely pragmatic reasons.

At any rate, I encourage people to take the time to learn about Jefferson, or any historical figure, before feeling at liberty to trash or praise him for such and such reasons. And digging through editorials for convenient quotes does not equate to any kind of useful historical analysis because, as I'm sure all of you know, quotes are extremely easy to take out of context. One could probably dig up enough quotes from any widely documented personage and paint them to be saints or devils.

On one last note, as everyone is very quick to judge history from the smug vantage point of the present, I urge you all to take a step back from your emotions and try to grapple with history on its own terms. Nobody here thinks slavery is a good idea now, but realize that this is a peculiar phenomenon which is basically unique to the last couple centuries of human history. Just because people in the past believed in things we now deem abhorrent doesn't mean we should take the knowledge we know now and romp through history condemning everyone that wasn't forward-thinking enough to think as we do now. Should we judge them by what they knew and how they acted on that, or what they didn't know? Nobody looks at pre-Copernican or Aristotelian astronomers and say, "Fucking dumbass and his geocentrism!" Yet when it comes to matters of morality, this is exactly what people do. Just something to think about.

As for staying on topic, I really don't care if a community wants to change the name of the school. I personally think it's a little silly to always be angry about things in the past, but if a sizable group is offended and are taking appropriate means to change this aspect, how does it affect the rest of us? It's none of our concern... Unless you have a fanatical obsession with Jefferson and your life's work is to make as many things named after him as possible.

At any rate, getting enraged over PCness and accusing the country of becoming "pinker" is just as reactionary as anything... not sure if you're trying to insinuate that PCness is the road to communism or if it's some other reference that went over my head.

As usual I have become more longwinded than I anticipated. Hopefully I said something useful and not a lot of nothing. Read the book!

03-31-2005, 02:52 PM	#27 (permalink)
meepa Insane	I see a lot of speculating about Jefferson in this thread. Let me, as a historian, recommend "American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson" by Joseph J. Ellis. It's about 350 pages, but extremely accessible for non-historian types without over-simplifying a very complex man and history. If you're looking for blind hero-worship or non-stop scathing scandal, this book isn't for you. However, it is a balanced book that takes look at the most influential periods of his life and attempts to analyze him in a fashion that fits in-between two covers in a very manageable way. Just some points of interest that I think some of the posters in this thread would like to know about Jefferson: He was (some would say) hopelessly idealistic. He had a very difficult time reconciling his ideals he created in the abstract world with the troubles of reality. However, he was very good at "fooling himself" into ignoring these things. Yes he was contradictory. Ellis puts forth the argument that he wasn't a hypocrite so much as a man who had the "intellectual agility" to believe one thing at the same time as he lives in a world where he does another. This is a big factor with the issue of slavery. Basically his stances were abhorrence of an unfortunate system that America was forced to inherit. He always claimed that slavery was inconsistent with republican ideals, but he was at a complete loss with what to do with a huge population of newly emancipated blacks which would have been in a real bind considering the prevalent attitudes concerning their inferiority. As for the poster who questioned whether Jefferson "needed" his slaves... Well the answer is "yes", while he did have a large estate with a large slave population, he was consistently in debt for various reasons and felt forced to keep them for purely pragmatic reasons. At any rate, I encourage people to take the time to learn about Jefferson, or any historical figure, before feeling at liberty to trash or praise him for such and such reasons. And digging through editorials for convenient quotes does not equate to any kind of useful historical analysis because, as I'm sure all of you know, quotes are extremely easy to take out of context. One could probably dig up enough quotes from any widely documented personage and paint them to be saints or devils. On one last note, as everyone is very quick to judge history from the smug vantage point of the present, I urge you all to take a step back from your emotions and try to grapple with history on its own terms. Nobody here thinks slavery is a good idea now, but realize that this is a peculiar phenomenon which is basically unique to the last couple centuries of human history. Just because people in the past believed in things we now deem abhorrent doesn't mean we should take the knowledge we know now and romp through history condemning everyone that wasn't forward-thinking enough to think as we do now. Should we judge them by what they knew and how they acted on that, or what they didn't know? Nobody looks at pre-Copernican or Aristotelian astronomers and say, "Fucking dumbass and his geocentrism!" Yet when it comes to matters of morality, this is exactly what people do. Just something to think about. As for staying on topic, I really don't care if a community wants to change the name of the school. I personally think it's a little silly to always be angry about things in the past, but if a sizable group is offended and are taking appropriate means to change this aspect, how does it affect the rest of us? It's none of our concern... Unless you have a fanatical obsession with Jefferson and your life's work is to make as many things named after him as possible. At any rate, getting enraged over PCness and accusing the country of becoming "pinker" is just as reactionary as anything... not sure if you're trying to insinuate that PCness is the road to communism or if it's some other reference that went over my head. As usual I have become more longwinded than I anticipated. Hopefully I said something useful and not a lot of nothing. Read the book!