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Originally Posted by Seaver
if they live in Oakland as opposed to Detroit. That's why preference should be given based on socio-economic reasons. You know, that way it IS a hand up to those who are born without much, and it's not based on skin color.
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I don't understand why you would propose this if you are opposed to "government sponsored discrimination."
I think you are finding some portion of an argument that you think is unanswerable and present it as your position. It doesn't seem heartfelt, but more that you think this will finally "get" the other people you're debating against. I see this behavior a lot in these threads, but maybe you aren't doing it here and I misread your intent. If so, then please explain how this doesn't contradict your own logic outlined earlier that you are opposed to discrimination of any form.
Why would doing anything by class change anything in practice anyway? Do you believe that racial minorities, who fill the ranks of the underclass while still admitting that whites, simply as a function of there being so many, have a hell of a lot of poor people too, won't still be obtaining benefits from such a newly worked system?
My personal belief is that a number of people in this thread don't have any direct knowledge of how affirmative action programs actually work. I saw one person complain that class isn't tapped on college and job apps--well it is. It's not a matter of opinion, that statement is just plain incorrect factually and anyone can go look at a college application to check the accuracy of what I just said. Parent's income is central to the government loan system, as well. You can look at that online by going to fafsa.ed.gov.
I haven't worked at Taco Bell for a long time, but I don't remember my race being asked on the application. That would be strange since it's illegal to discriminate based on race in hiring practices. But maybe it is there and Taco Bell really cares about how many black in proportion to white registers they have.
Perhaps you are referring to a career choice. The kind where you actually make a living and have to write a resume for. I have never put my race on my resume. I suppose that people could look at my last name and try and deduce what my race is--people who do that are often surprised since my dark skin tone doesn't match the last name my father gave me. Class discrimination likely occurs when the hiring personnel look at where you've been and who you know. Various research has found that racial discrimination occurs at the first level, as in obvious minority names aren't likely to make it to the face-to-face interview process, and then the next level, when the interviewer looks you in the face.
Directly contradicting much of what you imply, that racial minorities are outstripping poor people or other poor white people to be more precise, is the fact that the single largest group benefitting from affirmative action is upwardly mobile, white women. I have a hunch that everyone in this thread is a male. You're more likely to have lost "your slot" (your presumption of entitlement to being hired speaks to the power of belief of white priviledge that harry brough up) to a woman than a black or hispanic person. Much more likely.
I'll repeat a comment one of my white friends said to me and our professor in our minority studies course a long time ago: yeah, I've been descriminated against, but I figured what the hell, I can just go down the road and apply over there. I have and continue to have more life chances than that person will ever have, even with the benefit of affirmative action. It's a small price to pay, in my mind.
Well, the price hasn't been very small for me to pay because I fall in that not quite anything category when it comes to benefits and also, I think many of you working class people will feel this, not quite poor enough to qualify but too poor to pay category. But to say that income/wealth isn't figured is not accurate as many people who are poor and recieve benefits (or at least the opportunity to try: lunches, fee waivers, application reductions, & etc.) know to be the case.