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asaris · 03-21-2005, 07:28 AM

Can we make a distinction here? It seems as if we're talking about two different things, ethics and morality. By ethics I mean social norms; by morality I mean a system of norms that is extra-cultural and non-relative (at least, largely non-relative). It's clear that we have ethics, and that these are relative to different societies. A non-problematic example here is of driving on the right-hand side of the road. All Americans do it (at least, normatively), but we all recognize that there's nothing metaphyiscal about it. The British aren't bad people because they drive on the left-hand side of the road. On the other hand, the existence of a system of morality is open to question. IF we assume either the existence of a supreme God who wants us to act in certain ways or enough of a human nature to provide us with a teleology, we have morality. Otherwise, I don't think you can get it.

So what does morality have to do with religion? I don't think there's any necessary connection between the two. When the Greeks first came up with morality (I'm thinking of Plato here), it wasn't connected with religion but with human nature. On the other hand, Jewish morality was deeply connected with their religion.

So which came first? Let's look first at ethics and religion. Looking at it through secular eyes, they have different purposes. Religion attempts to make the world more understandable, while ethics attempts to make the life of man a little less nasty, brutish, and short. So does morality come from an attempt to universalize religion or an attempt to universalize ethics? I don't think there's any one answer to this; it depends on what society you're looking at.

03-21-2005, 07:28 AM	#20 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Can we make a distinction here? It seems as if we're talking about two different things, ethics and morality. By ethics I mean social norms; by morality I mean a system of norms that is extra-cultural and non-relative (at least, largely non-relative). It's clear that we have ethics, and that these are relative to different societies. A non-problematic example here is of driving on the right-hand side of the road. All Americans do it (at least, normatively), but we all recognize that there's nothing metaphyiscal about it. The British aren't bad people because they drive on the left-hand side of the road. On the other hand, the existence of a system of morality is open to question. IF we assume either the existence of a supreme God who wants us to act in certain ways or enough of a human nature to provide us with a teleology, we have morality. Otherwise, I don't think you can get it. So what does morality have to do with religion? I don't think there's any necessary connection between the two. When the Greeks first came up with morality (I'm thinking of Plato here), it wasn't connected with religion but with human nature. On the other hand, Jewish morality was deeply connected with their religion. So which came first? Let's look first at ethics and religion. Looking at it through secular eyes, they have different purposes. Religion attempts to make the world more understandable, while ethics attempts to make the life of man a little less nasty, brutish, and short. So does morality come from an attempt to universalize religion or an attempt to universalize ethics? I don't think there's any one answer to this; it depends on what society you're looking at. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche