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Originally Posted by roachboy
at every point, nothing that i say fits within the terms of debate you woudl prefer to see here. but the question i keep trying to raise is: why are you so unwilling to consider problems with your terms of debate, your frame of reference?
you could have an interesting conversation here if you would open it up.
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See this is where I think you are wrong. Plus, I think you misunderstand the concept here.
The main concept is: Are there topics that we can discuss that might actually be fruitful?
We have tons of threads here with everybody pointing out the problems with the other person's position. Has one of these threads led anywhere? Nope, they just go on and on and on until everybody gives up.
What was accomplished? Nothing. We went nowhere. Everybody ended up exactly where they started.
I am trying to see if there are topics that could be discussed, where common ground could be achieved through equal concessions of both sides.
Example: Universal Healthcare.
Did the previous threads about Universal Healthcare go anywhere? No, because nobody was willing to give in a little to their opinion.
Now, after several comments in this thread, we see that the idea can be brought up again and it might actually lead somewhere. We see that people that were against the idea, might consider it, if the discussion was framed correctly.
Are there still topics where we will never be able to find common ground? Of course.
But, as I mentioned in another thread, most of those discussions are way too similar to banging one's head against a wall.
My second thought relates to habits. Right now the habit is to disagree with the other side simply because they are the other side. I think the habit can be broken, but it will require steps.
We start with the easy ones. Both sides give a little and the next thing you know, we have a conclusion that is agreeable to most of us. Sure we started out with an idea that had existing middle ground, but we showed to ourselves and each other that we can move forward--we discover that middle ground isn't a fantasy.
Kinda like football, you don't start out pro, you start out pee-wee.
Then we move on and the chances for success are greater because we have already overcome the hurdle that has been holding us back this whole time.
You are never, ever going to get everything the way you want them to be and neither will I.
So, how do we progress if we aren't willing to give a little to get a little?
Right now, I will not concede one inch to your positions because you offer up nothing in return. That is the core of any negotiation. Why would I concede everything when you concede nothing, it just ain't going to happen.
That is why I am not responding to any of your comments about the free-market, capitalism, welfare, etc.
What is more important to you? To move forward or to stay stuck in the mud, because right now we are spinning our wheels? Wouldn't it benefit you more to get a few concessions made to you rather than none?
What are you willing to hedge on in order to get other people to take a more favorable view on your stances?
As to your last question: open it up how? (the question I have asked you several times)