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Originally Posted by zen_tom
Patriotism, like racism and nationalism is unfortunately one of the evils of our race that simply does not seem to want to go away. Plato (or was it Socrates?) felt that one owed one's life to the city one chose to live in because it offered protection, schooling and many other benefits. This may have some validity - however, in the world we live in today, the forces of the free-market are strong enough to engulf the individual in necessary beaurocracy and red tape. The city-states of Socrates and Plato were much smaller affairs, where a man really could make a difference. Patriotism in a small-scale city state is very much like looking after your family and friends - something I can understand. Patriotism in the form of the irrational belief that the country one was born in just happens to be the best/greatest in one respect or another is however something entirely different. I accept looking after one's family, but one's country? Now that does sound a little but like religious indoctrination to me.
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So your reason for not standing up for what you believe in is because you think the world is so big compared to you that you will not make a difference? Do you think a single defensive lineman in football has any chance of holding back the other team? If everyone stands up for what they believe they
can make a difference, but if everyone acts as cowardly as you they will never be worth anything.
In theory the citizens have a moral investment in their country. Your dislike of religion aside, if you do not believe in your country perhaps you should leave and stop hypocritically reaping rewards from a system you profess not to support.
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Originally Posted by zen_tom
Violence is proof that all other avenues have failed. Someone with a shred of intellect should be able to find a solution in 90% of cases. In the 10% where a solution cannot be found, if you do resort to violence, you'd better make a good job of it, because if you don't they're going to come after you in the morning with their mates - how is that going to protect your family?
The trouble with war against entire nations is that often you simply can't kill everyone. Which means that someone will end up turning up with a bomb on your front doorstep. In the meantime, you need to employ someone to stand on your doorstep looking out for bombs. Which leaves your windows vulnerable to attack, which means you need to get someone to shield those aswell. Before long, your position becomes unsustainable.
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Here it seems you are arguing that war is difficult. No argument with that point.
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Originally Posted by zen_tom
While this may have been true in Mr Mill's time, it really is a very dated idea today. Those exertions have been made, by brave and driven men before us, the world has been built. But we have discovered that peace is far more productive than war. The world has progressed, we have moved on, we have harnessed more powerfull forces than Mr Mill could have ever imagined. This makes his viewpoint is nothing more than a relic today, a quaint window into the dusty past.
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All you have discovered is that you can profit while hiding behind the bodies of people who care about your wellbeing. If you would look at the middle east you would see a remarkable lack of progression.