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Originally Posted by Manx
We. The people of the United States of America. If IQ were the almost exclusive determining factor in wealth distribution, the people of the United States would be nearly equally wealthy, simply due to the marginal difference in IQ amongst human beings.
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Marginal difference in IQ among human beings? Are you familiar at all with research on IQ? If you think that there is only a marginal difference in IQ among human beings, you are completely divorced from reality and completely unfamiliar with research on intelligence. Even those who would argue that intelligence has little to do with a particular outcome I have cited would not argue that there is only a marginal difference in IQ among human beings.
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Intelligence has little connection to social fortitude.
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This is an empirical question, not a fact
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Since no study of the relationship we are discussing has been presented in this discussion, we each have a sum total of one sample by which to evaluate our opinions - and that one sample happens to be ourselve.
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I have cited research. I have not cited my own personal experience. I will cite more research below.
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I have already expressed numerous examples of logic that supports my overall claim - conversely, you have not expressed logic that supports your claim.
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The questions we have been discussing cannot be answered by logic alone. They are empirical questions that require answers from empirically driven research.
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Nonsense. You have referenced one single thing, which was determined to not even be related to the original topic.
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I cited two sources and offerred to cite more. Both sources were relevant to the discussion.
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That sounds an awful lot like you're now telling me that my entire point is the wrong point to have and I should change my point so that it includes any increase in wealth, which would of course make your study relevent to the topic, by virtue of changing the topic.
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My point was not about whether or not large wealth should be included. It is about statistics in general. It is a mathematical impossibility to demonstrate a relationship between any two variables without including the variation of both the two variables in the calculation.
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I'm not unwilling to consider scientific research on the topics. You haven't presented any scientific research on the topic.
If you want to discuss this beyond the realm of your opinion vs. my opinion (which I have supported with logic), please show me a scientific study which actually relates to the topic of large wealth not primarily dependent on SES.
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The original discussion had little to do with large wealth. I mentioned this before. Still, I the sources I have cited address it. The NLSY used by Herrnstein and Murray is a stratified representative sample of individuals in the US- meaning it includes both the very rich and the very poor. The sources I cite below also address the wealthy. However, because you don't seem to understand how relationships are demonstrated in research (see above), I have my doubts that you would understand any sources that I cite. I have argued from the beginning that there is a strong relationship between income and IQ across the ranges of both IQ and income independent of SES. Here are a few more sources.
The correlation between intelligence and income is not significantly diminished by partialing out the contributions of work experience, education, and other demographic variables. Education and intelligence each contribute to a worker's income, but the smart individuals earn most of the extra wage benefit of education. In addition, the economic benefits of either schooling or intelligence are disproportionately embodied in th rising income of educated people with high IQ scores and in the falling wages earned by less educateed people with low IQ scores. Sources:
Blackburn, M.L., and Neumark, D. (1991). Unobserved Ability, Efficiency Wages, and Interindustry Wage Differentials. Cambridge, MA: National Bureau of Economic Research.
Angrist, J.D. and Krueger, A.B. (1991). Does compulsory school attendance affect schooling and earnings? Quarterly Journal of Economics, 106, 979-1014.
The relationship of IQ and Income
Burt, C.L., 1943. Ability and income. British Journal of Educational Psychology 13, pp. 83–98.
Gottfredson, L.S., 1986. The g factor in employment. Journal of Vocational Behavior 29, pp. 293–450 Special Issue.
Herrnstein, H.J. and Murray, C., 1994. The bell curve: intelligence and class structure in American life, The Free Press, New York.
Jencks, C., 1979. Who gets ahead? The determinants of economic success in America, Basic Books, New York.
Jensen, A.R., 1998. The g factor, Praeger, Westport, CT.
Mackintosh, N.J., 1998. IQ and human intelligence, Oxford University Press, New York.
Nyborg, H & Jensen, AR (2001). Occupation and income related to psychometric g. Intelligence, Vol 29(1), 45-55.
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If you want to add something of logic or scientific study which actually relates to the topic, I will consider it. More of the same and you're on your own.
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Seems like the pot calling the kettle black, but either way, I've cited many sources. I'm skeptical that you will look into any of them, but I encourage you to do so. I'm done.