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Old 03-04-2005, 05:07 PM   #75 (permalink)
sapiens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth
??????

please, don't do that. *cries*

EDIT: Manx, he just cited the Bell Curve.
Have you ever read it? Or are you basing your judgment on it's PR?

EDIT (Addition): If you have a particular criticism of the studies demonstrating the results I cite, I'm interested, but a kneejerk *cries* reaction to effects demonstrated in peer reviewed journals doesn't forward the discussion (in my mind anyway). Also, if you require more specific references, I can dig 'em up, but not today. (Herrnstein and Murray's book is a summary of many studies done by many different people).

Quote:
I don't have any study to point to, but I'd bet $1 that there is a much stronger relationship between family wealth and future wages than there is between IQ and future wages.
In any comparison, I would look at the effect of SES controlled for IQ and compare it to the effect of IQ controlled for SES.

IQ predicts likelihood of permanently dropping out of high school and likelihood of obtaining a GED instead of a high school diploma. IQ predicted both effects better than socioeconomic status. IQ correlates with military grade achieved and job performance in studies of civilians. IQ scores more strongly predict job performance than other variable typically associated with job performance (biographical information, education, etc.). High IQ lowers the probability of having a month or more period of unemployment. Thirty-five percent of adult income can be accounted for by IQ level in junior high. High IQ occupations are well-paid occupations. IQ also moderately predicts the probability of being in poverty. I could go on.

SES does have an effect on educational outcome independent of IQ. SES affects a variety of social outcomes. I might even agree that "Many people who earn higher wages only do so because they have an education that others couldn't *ever* afford to get. Not because they worked harder." (because "many people" is not very specific), but I would not draw the conclusion that SES predicts income or educational attainment better than IQ. Regardless of study outcomes, I'm most concerned about studies demonstrating the power of SES that do not account for stable individual differences between people.

EDIT (Addition): I'm realizing that this line of discussion might become a bit of a threadjack. Whether or not IQ and income are related doesn't have a bearing on questions about universal health care (in my mind anyway).

I don't know enough about universal healthcare, but if the US goverment currently spends more on healthcare than Canada does for their universal system (per capita, I guess?) what would be wrong with a similar universal health care system in the US (perhaps supplemented by private health care plans)?

Last edited by sapiens; 03-04-2005 at 06:02 PM..
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