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Originally Posted by irateplatypus
it just appears to me that you're still trying to have it both ways. on one hand or on one thread christianity is battered for being this monolithic moral force bearing down on society with great weight... now i'm told that it's fractured and inconsistent. of course i'm not quoting your single person specifically but rather those who i would imagine sharing your position.
i'm not sure where you got the idea that there are many christians who endorse gay marriage. that is just simply not so. an accurate statement would be that there are some.
a proper response to your question would require a couple hours and a few beers... but i think the argument, once again, transitions from a semi-relativistic post-modern view of truth versus a traditional one. the inconsistencies you perceive in the christian ranks are the inroads post-modernity (in large part anyway) have made in millenia old institutions. the very ideas that seem to be fractures are often the very same modes of thought that you employ in this thread. it's hard to discuss christianity as a cohesive whole in a societal sense because its impact on systems of thought is dying. there have been very recently conceived foreign things thrust into christianity that should not yet be judged part of the whole. gosh... i feel like roachboy being so ridiculously abstract. sorry, i'll think on this some more.
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I know that it started out treating christianity as a monolithic whole, but at some point i amended that and began to only refer to fundamentalism and evangelicalism, two mentalities that seem by their very definitions to be unable to accept the "live and let live" aspect of the golden rule to any great degree.
Certainly the christians who endorse gay marriage are in the minority number-wise, but their christian morals are just as valid as any other denomination.
I don't think you can blame post-modernism for the fracturization of christianity. The christian church has been fractured for centuries.
for example:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm
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How the Christian "families" evolved:
With the exception of the first few years after the execution of their founder Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ), Christianity was never a unified religion.
-By the end of the 1st century CE three main movements remained:
- Pauline Christians: a group of mainline congregations, largely of non-Jewish Christians. Some had been created by Paul and his co-workers. They evolved to become the established church.
- Gnostic Christians: They claimed salvation through special, otherwise secret gnosis (knowledge). Some were members of mainline congregations; others were part of Gnostic groups. They were declared heretics and were gradually suppressed and exterminated.
- Jewish Christians: remnants of the group originally headed by James, the brother of Yeshua, and including Jesus' disciples. They were scattered throughout the Roman Empire after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and gradually disappeared.
- Circa 400 CE: The Bishop of Rome began to be recognized as the most senior of all bishops. Siricius (384-399 CE) became the first bishop to be called Pope.
- 1054 CE: A lengthy power struggle between eastern and western Christianity culminated in a schism between the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Western Rite (later often called the Roman Catholic Church). Many Christian sects broke away from the Western Rite throughout the Middle Ages (Cathars, Knights Templars, etc.). These were generally exterminated by the central church in various genocidal wars.
- 1517 CE: Martin Luther attacked certain practices and beliefs of the Church, and the authority of the Pope. He was followed by other reformers which produced a mass movement -- the Protestant Reformation. They were driven largely by two fundamental principles:
- "Sola Scriptura" (Scripture Alone): The belief that the Holy Bible was the ultimate authority for all matters of religious belief and practice.
- The Priesthood of all Believers: The belief that no priest or other intermediary is needed between the Christian believer and God.
- Into modern times: Protestant Christianity became fractured into over 1,500 individual denominations, as individuals and groups began to interpret the Bible in their own unique ways. They continually formed new sects that they felt were closer to Jesus' intentions for the church. In the past fifteen decades in North America schisms occurred over the legitimacy of human slavery, and whether to allow women to be ordained. A number of mainline denominations -- Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal -- are attempting to keep their organizations intact in spite of differences of belief about sexual orientation. They are debating whether to grant equal rights to gays and lesbians, and whether to recognize same-sex relationships.
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or another section on homosexuality and christianity:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chur2.htm
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Overview:
Most Christian denominations, sects, and new religious movement have stated policies towards gays and lesbians:
- Whether to allow known, sexually active homosexuals to:
- become and remain church members with full privileges.
- be considered for ordination
- hold other positions of power.
- Whether to allow known celibate homosexuals to:
- become and remain church members with full privileges.
- be considered for ordination
- hold other positions of power.
- Whether to provide a formal religious ceremony for committed gay and lesbian couples. These are variously called union, civil union, commitment or marriage ceremonies.
- Whether to have an active study program to reduce homophobia within the denomination.
There is no consensus within Christianity about:
- The nature of homosexuality,
- What the Bible says about homosexuality, or
- What policies to enforce about gay and lesbian members, candidates for ordination. commitment rituals or study programs.
The response of Christian faith groups to homosexuality varies greatly, depending upon their position in the liberal - fundamentalist continuum. More liberal denominations and Christians tend to view homosexuality as a civil rights matter; they generally believe it is fixed, unchosen, normal, natural, and morally neutral sexual orientation for a minority of adults. More conservative denominations and Christians tend to view homosexuality as a profound evil; they generally believe it is changeable, chosen, abnormal, unnatural and immoral behavior, regardless of the nature of the relationship.
- The more liberal denominations, like the United Church of Christ, have changing their positions on homosexuality, in recent years, to adopt a more inclusive stance.
- Mainline denominations such as the Methodists, Presbyterians and Episcopalians are actively debating the question. A future church schism may result., particularly in the case of the Presbyterian Church (USA), Similar splits have occurred in the past over human slavery, whether women should be ordained, and certain theological debates.
- More conservative denominations are taking no significant action at this time, except to occasionally condemn homosexuality.
- Fundamentalist denominations commit significant effort against homosexuality and homosexual rights. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention expelled three of their congregations who had conducted a study of homosexuality, had concluded that the denomination's beliefs were invalid, and who welcomed gays and lesbians as members.
All movement appears to be towards greater inclusiveness towards homosexuality and homosexuals. This is reinforced by the more accepting stance of today's youth. We are unaware of any religious groups becoming less inclusive.
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The term "christian morals" doesn't mean anything specific.
As i said above, i have no problem with christianity in general. I don't have a problem with the legislation of morality. What i do have a problem with is one particular group attempting to use the power of the united states government to push a religious agenda. What the president fails to mention when he claims that he doing god's work, is that he isn't doing your god's work, he's doing his god's work. It's only a matter of time before his god tells him to do something that is in conflict with what your god tells you to do. The issue of freedom from religion is something most christians feel like they don't have to worry about, but they're wrong. Christianity as it exists today is also threatened by an increasingly fundamentalist/evangelical ruling class.
If someone can come up with a well reasoned argument as to why gays shouldn't marry, good for them. I should mention, though, that the criteria for an argument to be well reasoned, when debating public policy, doesn't involve bible citations.