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Originally Posted by NCB
Intresting.
You talk about upbringing and lack of tolerance, and other liberal ploys to avoid the argument. What's ironic is that you can substitute the story of your friend with a story of devout Born Again Christians, for because of upbringing and lack of tolerance, are pissed on just as much as homosexuals.
BTW, when you mentioned that your friend and his boyfriend are not accepted in their own community, do you mean his community as a whole or the homosexual community? As I'm sure you're aware, the homosexual community is not exactly united in this whole "marriage" thing.
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I meant that my friend and his partner happen to live in a "red" state that
recently wasted it's legislative time and expense in order to pass a soon to be declared unconstitutional amendement to "ban" same sex unions.
I debated whether to just take the easy way out and counter your comparison of discrimination experienced by dBA Christians versus discrimination experienced by homosexuals. i.e. "they do not......do too !!"
I have personal experience with your point of view because I hear it repeated often by fellow members of the Southern Baptist congregation that my most recent wife has persuaded me to join and participate in, in exchange for the
pleasure of her company on sunday mornings, and at other times of prayer, bible study, and fellowship. I believe in Christ as my saviour, and in my personal experience, most Southern Baptists consider themselves to be "saved" or dBA Christians. I differ with "saved" Christians who I know in that
I believe that the bible is not to be interpreted literally, and I believe that
people who have not been given an opportunity to accept Jesus as their
saviour cannot simply be excluded from the possibility of eternal salvation.
If you are interested, on the "Religious Right's Beliefs.........." thread, I posted
an alternative interpretation of the Book of Revelation project undertaken
on the <a href="http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/">Knox Theological Seminary website.</a>
My point of view is that of a New Englander. I have lived in the Bible Belt only
a short time. I have observed an arrogance influenced by a mindset of "salvational exclusivity", coupled with a pervasive persecution complex among
the southern Christian communtiy, which you allude to in your post.
Please tell me how you can compare the sometimes violent and too often, blatantly intimidating and at least taunting, comtemptuous, and degrading discrimination that openly gay people are subjected to in America, (your "boyfriend" reference, after I described a participant in a "25 year" relationship, exhibited this, I think), with the status quo and the politcal power of the dBA Christians in America ?
I want to be a Baptist along the lines of seminary graduate Bill Moyers, a
man who can look objectively on the state of the country and that of
the Christian community. It is comical to read your "discrimination against
the dBA" comments, knowing that recently, the six top leaders in the federal
government were all of either Southern Baptist or of the Baptist faith. If three
of them were Jews, would you ignore the signifiance of that, as you seem to
downplay the fact that having six baptists as national government leaders
tends to make your discrimination talk seem absurd. Bill Moyers is a lot more
reliable in his observations, and much more tolerant than Robertson, Falwell, or LaHaye, Dobson, etc. Contemplate enlarging your own sphere of influential Christian leaders and spokespersons.
Quote:
<a href="http://www.narsil.org/politics/moyers/Jan_4_2002.html">http://www.narsil.org/politics/moyers/Jan_4_2002.html</a>
Bill Moyers
Harry Middleton Lecture
Lyndon Baines Johnson Library
Austin, Texas
January 4, 2002
....................We have work to do.
You know that I come out of that big tent of tradition called Baptists. At last count, there were more than two dozen varieties of us in America. Bill Clinton is a Baptist; so is Pat Robertson. Jesse Jackson is a Baptist; so is Jesse Helms. Trent Lott is a Baptist; so is Al Gore. Newt Gingrich and Richard Gephardt. No wonder Baptists have been compared to jalapeno peppers – one or two make for a tasty dish but a whole bunch of them together in one place brings tears to your eyes.
Twenty years ago I covered the first convention of the Moral Majority, held right here in Texas, in Dallas. With a major presidential candidate sitting on the dais, our cameras captured the president of the Southern Baptist convention as he declared that God does not hear the prayers of a Jew. Since then his crowd has taken control of the Southern Baptist Convention – the country’s largest Protestant denomination – and turned their pews into precincts of right-wing politics. Recently they published a prayer guide calling on Christians to pray for the nine hundred million Hindus who ‘worship gods which are not God.’ Now it’s natural for religions to want others to see the truth as it does, but when a Hindu engineer asked me if Southern Baptists speak for all Baptists, I told him they don’t even speak for all Southern Baptists. We Baptists differ profoundly in how we read the Bible, how we read history, and – surprise, surprise – how we read election results. My father was a Baptist deacon who thought for himself. He was certain that Cain and Abel were the first Baptists, since they had introduced fratricide into the Bible. But think about it. The first murder rose out of a religious act. Adam and Eve have two sons – the first parents to cope with what it means to raise Cain. Both brothers are rivals for God’s favor, so both bring God an offering. Cain is a farmer and offers the first fruits of the soil. Abel is a shepherd and offers the first lamb from the flock. Two generous gifts.
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I see Bill Moyers holding up a mirror for interested Christians to look at themselves in. I see the "Christian Right" using a magic mirror like the one
in the Cinderella fairy tale, where they know that they will always see the
"fairest on of all", when they gaze into it.