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Banned
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Originally Posted by flstf
This reminds me of some of the things that came out after the attack on Pearl Harbor and why we didn't act on information gathered from intercepted Japanese radio messages, etc..
Hindsight is always 20/20 and it is not too difficult to look back and find things that seem obvious to us now that we should have acted on.
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Damn.... I am reluctant to do this because I can almost hear the demands
calling for this thread (or at least this post) to be moved to the "P" word
thread, but in view of what I posted previously here, coupled with the recent
revelation of the quiet, delayed archiving of the partially de-classified 9/11
Commission report by the Bush administration, and the release of Richard Clark's
<A HREF="http://www.metronews.ca/reuters_international.asp?id=55647">Jan. 2001 memo</A> to the new Bush admin., along with all the other discrepancies,
stonewalling, uncooperativeness, and misleading testimony of the Bush admin., Sen. Barbara Boxer's recent detailed and scathing presentation during
Dr. Rice's senate confirmation hearing <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20795-2005Jan19.html">(Boxer concluded: "So here you are, first contradicting the president and then contradicting yourself.)</A>related to Rice's own history of
providing hyped and misleading info to the press and under oath in testimony
to the 9/11 commission.... I am going to....anyway..... because flstf's comments, quoted above, have helped me to overcome my reluctance, and
because it meshes well with the quote in my "sig", and because my belief
in what my nose detects about Bushco's behavior and reaction to 9/11......
a growing stench.......inspires me to share information and raise the curiosity
level in others who might have a well developed sense of smell:
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<a href="http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041028-021717-2314r.htm">http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041028-021717-2314r.htm</a>
Contradicting the 9/11 commission's report, two men who worked extensively in the wreckage of the World Trade Center following the 9-11 attacks claim they helped federal agents find three of the four airliner "black box" flight recorders from the jetliners that struck the towers. Both the commission and federal authorities continue to insist that none of the four devices -- two cockpit voice recorders, or CVRs, and two flight data recorders, known as FDRs -- were ever found. But New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi wrote, in collaboration with several Ground Zero workers, a self-published book in 2003, which said DeMasi escorted federal agents on an all-terrain vehicle in October 2001 and helped them locate three of the four recording devices. Volunteer Mike Bellone supports DeMasi's account. Bellone said he assisted DeMasi and the agents and saw something resembling a "black box" in the back of the firefighter's ATV. Federal aviation officials said the World Trade Center attacks seem to be the only major jetliner crashes in which the black boxes were never located. National Transportation and Safety Board spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz noted, "It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back. I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders." A footnote to the 9/11 commission report states, "The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found," a claim repeated by FBI officials and the New York City Fire Department earlier this week.
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<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20050213030209/http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/evidence/tomflocco_Lawyers_blackboxs.htm">9/11 Lawyers Seek Black-Box Data on Saudi Hijackers</a>
Link to a site with much info on unusual secrecy relating to black boxes found at other 9/11 airliner crash sites.
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<a href="http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARCHI&ARTICLE_ID=133237&VERSION_NUM=1">http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARCHI&ARTICLE_ID=133237&VERSION_NUM=1</a>
( Bill Manning Fire Engineering January, 2002)
Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America’s fire engineers and firefighters, recently blasted the investigation being conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) of the collapsed World Trade Center as a “a half-baked farce.”
Fire Engineering’s editor, William Manning, issued a “call to action” to America’s firefighters and fire engineers in the January issue asking them to contact their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to demand a blue ribbon panel to thoroughly investigate the collapse of the World Trade Center structures.
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<a href="http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archi&Subsection=Display&P=25&ARTICLE_ID=215236&KEYWORD=wtc">http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archi&Subsection=Display&P=25&ARTICLE_ID=215236&KEYWORD=wtc</a>
(Fire Engineering October, 2004)
Was 9/11 Commission "aggressive enough" in its study?
The Skyscraper Safety Campaign (SSC), a Project of Parents and Families of Firefighters & WTC Victims, is deeply concerned that the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (The 9/11 Commission) failed to take an aggressive look at what happened to New York City (NYC) and its emergency personnel on 9/11/01.
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<h2>The NIST Investigators so far, cannot find the reason why either WTC Tower collapsed !</h2>
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<a href="http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery.htm#recover">http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery.htm#recover Gallery of Recovered World Trade Center Steel at NIST</a>
<a href="http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/ncstmin_oct19-20.htm">The National Construction Safety Team Advisory Committee
National Institute of Standards and Technology (WTC INVESTIGATION)
Minutes of October 19 - 20, 2004, Meeting - Gaithersburg, Maryland</a>
(Following is from the first Q&A...near the top of the web page)
Q: Referring to the column shortening in WTC 1, is the elastic strain reported at room temperature?
A: No. The values reported are for elevated temperature. The history is traced, including degradation of properties.
Q: For test 1 of the fire resistance tests of the floor systems at Underwriters Laboratories, you show unrestrained rating of one hour. Was that an analytical conclusion or a tested result?
A: We show in each case an unrestrained rating when we actually did a restrained test. What we are showing there is not the result of an actual unrestrained test, but the temperature criteria in the standard for a restrained test.
C: Right, one of the major significances of the series of these tests is that test 2 was an unrestrained test and showed superior performance.
<b>
Q: I want to ask about the floor performance. The way I understood your description of the collapse scenario, the behavior of the floor systems was not a central issue. Can you connect the floor results with that?
A: The results reinforce each other. The results of the fire test versus the load test support the finding that the floors were not a driving force in the collapse.</b>
(Following Q&A is from the middle of the web page.....)
Q: In the absence of impact, fire only, burnout would have been achieved and the building would not have collapsed? Am I interpreting that correctly?
A: Yes. For the fires we have analyzed to date for floor systems with ¾ inch fireproofing in place, even with gaps observed in photographs, the floors would have deformed, but would not have initiated collapse.
A: We have looked at credible fires in an undamaged tower. Remember, for this scenario, there would not be broken windows to supply oxygen to fuel the fire. This is a working hypothesis and analyses remain to be completed.
Q: Regarding the findings for global analysis with impact damage, I want to make sure I’m interpreting the information correctly for floor 96 in WTC 1. At 600 seconds, there’s 23 inches of deflection on the trusses. When the fires move away, the trusses restore to 6 inches of deflection?
A: Yes. The 23 inches is next to the impact area.
C (NIST): Referring to the slide on global analysis without impact damage. You have a statement that burnout was likely prior to collapse. This infers that collapse would occur. You may want to change your wording to say burnout without collapse.
A: Agree.
Q: Do you have a complete run for the entire buildup of the tower?
A: We have completed the realistic case for WTC 1. The realistic case for WTC 2 is running and may be completed later today. We’ve also done the component analyses.
Q: Can you envision another set of conditions that gives the same observed failure mechanism?<b>
A: We had to remove four to five floors to get global instability.
A: We looked at this very carefully. We could not find a way to make the building come down.</b>
(The following Q&A is located near the bottom of the web page
<b>Read the bold print paragraph. Recycling the steel was premature</b>)
The last areas covered were a review of the findings from Project 3 and a description of the Investigation issue associated with Project 3. The issue deals with the use of "fire-resistant" steel in the United States, especially the appropriate measurement methods to characterize properties, and the codes in the United States, Japan, and Europe, which tend to encourage or discourage the use of such steels.
Q: I have a problem with the statement that the steel collected for the investigation is adequate. If I were doing an accident reconstruction, I would’ve been looking for core columns that were hit by the aircraft. It may be okay from a research perspective. It should not be stated that it is adequate from an investigation point of view.
A: It would have been nice to have, but may have been very hard to find. There is an issue of how the pieces hit would have survived and how they could be identified.
Q: If you go to the site, you look for pieces of the right size, etc. NIST never had the opportunity to do this type of search.<b>
A: The Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) started collecting steel in October of 2001. NIST was a member of that team. That team had a list of steel to look for. Some steel had disappeared and was recycled. NIST took over 8 months before the investigation began. We did not have reconstruction in mind. That would have been extremely expensive for us to do. We tried to get all grades of steel. We tried to get pieces from the impact zone, fire affected pieces, etc. If we had the authority, we would have been more aggressive.</b>
Q: That’s what I’m saying. Looking down the road to future incidents, NIST should have the authority to preserve evidence useful for an investigation.
A: We’ll qualify that statement.
Q: The hypothesis is that core columns got above 600 ºC. It would be nice to have pieces of steel to support that hypothesis. You do have trusses from above the floors of impact?
A: None of the trusses could be identified as to location, only the truss seats that were considered part of the panels.
Q: Have you analyzed the truss seats?
A: Yes, but the steel for the truss seats was from various sources, so there was no baseline material for comparison purposes for metallography.
C: As John Barsom said, the statement is not accurate. The validity of the model question from yesterday speaks to this issue. I do not believe that we have enough forensic evidence. It may be okay to establish steel quality. There was no effort by the Building Performance Study team to systematically look at the steel.
C: The use of the term “adequate” needs to be revisited. There is no core column test to support the hypothesis. The floors came down, the slabs were pulverized. This was unprecedented. Exterior columns and core remained. The floors group will attack this finding.
C: With the low data points for the yield strength as shown on the slides, it does not appear to indicate that the steel meets the specifications. You need to flag the reasons for these outliers. Compression is a factor. Properties can change due to compression even if there is no deformation. This needs to be stated. Fire resistant steel claims by Japan are false. There is hardly any difference. The difference is in the modeling done in Japan. These steels would not perform better than U.S. materials. You need to concentrate on the performance of steel as it is tested—look at weldability, high-temperature chrome steels. Also, the cost of such steel may be a factor.
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Quote:
<a href="http://www.yubanet.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/14643">http://www.yubanet.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/14643</a>
WTC Rescue Hero Sues Bush and Others under RICO Statute
By: Philip J. Berg, Margaret Atheling Rowe
Published: Oct 23, 2004
Attorney Berg acknowledges that Rodriguez’s action will shock and offend many Americans. But he urges critics to read the detailed complaint, posted on the internet at <a href="www.911forthetruth.com">www.911forthetruth.com</a>Attorney Berg acknowledges that Rodriguez’s action will shock and offend many Americans. But he urges critics to read the detailed complaint, posted on the internet at www.911forthetruth.com, before forming conclusions. “The ‘Official Story’ of what actually took place on 9-11 is a lie,” Berg flatly maintains. “We do not pretend to have put together a full and definitive account of how, and by whom, the attacks were carried out. But information reported in mainstream media, and viewed in the light of common sense and the laws of physics, demonstrate that the ‘Official Story,’ examined closely, is not credible. The ‘Official Story’ contains an alarming number of inconsistencies and implausibilities. The major media have reported many of the raw facts, but have studiously avoided analysis, because doing so would reveal that the government is lying to us. The 9-11 Commission, a suspect collection of government and intelligence insiders, restated without question or examination all essential elements of the ‘Official Story’ of the actual events of 9-11. It failed almost completely to refute, or even to mention, the great body of evidence that suggests the ‘Official Story’ cannot be true, and it failed completely to hold anyone accountable. From the foregoing facts, it ought to be obvious that a cover-up, or a “limited hang-out” admitting only bureaucratic mistakes for which no one is to be held accountable, has taken place and is continuing.”</a>, before forming conclusions. “The ‘Official Story’ of what actually took place on 9-11 is a lie,” Berg flatly maintains. “We do not pretend to have put together a full and definitive account of how, and by whom, the attacks were carried out. But information reported in mainstream media, and viewed in the light of common sense and the laws of physics, demonstrate that the ‘Official Story,’ examined closely, is not credible. The ‘Official Story’ contains an alarming number of inconsistencies and implausibilities. The major media have reported many of the raw facts, but have studiously avoided analysis, because doing so would reveal that the government is lying to us. The 9-11 Commission, a suspect collection of government and intelligence insiders, restated without question or examination all essential elements of the ‘Official Story’ of the actual events of 9-11. It failed almost completely to refute, or even to mention, the great body of evidence that suggests the ‘Official Story’ cannot be true, and it failed completely to hold anyone accountable. From the foregoing facts, it ought to be obvious that a cover-up, or a “limited hang-out” admitting only bureaucratic mistakes for which no one is to be held accountable, has taken place and is continuing.”
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Karl W. B. Schwarz lives in Little Rock, AR and is the author of <A HREF="http://www.karlschwarz.com/"> One-Way Ticket to Crawford, Texas, a Conservative Republican Speaks </A> He is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Patmos Nanotechnologies, LLC and I-nets Security Systems, a designer of intelligence and communications UAV systems.
<A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120404Schwarz/120404schwarz.html">
Part 1: The 9-11 Commission</A>
<A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/121004Schwarz/121004schwarz.html">
Part 2: 9/11 Commission and Bridas</A>
<A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/121704Schwarz/121704schwarz.html"> Part 3: 9-11 served a multitude of purposes</A><BR> <A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/011405Schwarz/011405schwarz.html"> Part 4: More reasons to not investigate 9-11</A>
<A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/020205Schwarz/020205schwarz.html"> Part 5: Exploding the myth of the Bushes as an all-American family</A>
<A HREF="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/021205Schwarz/021205schwarz.html">
Part 6: Pop goes the Bush Mythology Bubble - February 12, 2005</A>
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Last edited by host; 02-13-2005 at 04:26 AM..
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