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crumbbum · 05-15-2003, 06:11 PM

You are merely spewing propaganda. You haven't stated any facts. I am aware of the UN record on Israel. That proves nothing. When it comes down to helping jews or getting oil contracts, there is usually no hesitation to ignore the truth. Why, to you, has Israel been singled out to the extent that is has been, while its neighbors engage in the most horrific human rights abuses anywhere in the world? And by the way, you say that Reuters said the camps were surrounded. That can mean a lot of things. As I said before, the IDF controlled the area. However, there was not a circle of Israeli soldiers standing in a circle around the village cheering as the massacre was taking place. That is ridiculous. They "surrounded" the village- meaning they controlled the area around it. No IDF soldier or officer participated in, or had foreknowledge of the event. You have conveniently dodged my points, facts that disprove what you are saying, like Sharon's case against Time magazine, which he won. I suppose the American justice system is overrun by a zionist conspiracy, right?
The lebanese forces happened to be the personal forces of the Lebanese president. They were not some rag-tag militia, they were the soverign military force in the region. They were fighting the PLO, which had established a terrorist mini-state within Lebanon, and like I said before, committed horrific crimes against the Lebanese. When the IDF went into Lebanon, the lebanese threw flowers at them and greeted them as liberators. They felt abandoned after the war when Israel pulled out, and Syria moved in.
You say Sharon doesn't want peace? Then what does he want? War? Why? Look at a map- Israel is surrounded by enemies, and takes up less than 1% of the land the arabs have. Since when do they have any choice but peace? Do you consider the palestinians as peace-loving, flexible and open minded liberals? Do you consider someone who straps a bomb to their body, packed with nails, screws, and rat poison, and gets on a bus filled with children and senior citizens, and blows themselves up, killing dozens of innocent people, in the belief that this will take him straight to paradise, where 70 virgins will be waiting for him, desperate? Do you feel sympathy for the bomber? Do you think that it's the settlements that gave him to choice but to do this?
The Israelis do not target civilians. There are curfews, and other forms of military control of palestinians areas when repeated terror attacks come out of those areas. Palestinian gunmen often deliberately fire form inside building with children and other civilians in them, so that when the Israeli troops return fire, innocent people are killed. This, of course, creates more sympathy for the Palestinians.
Oh, and you blame the Israelis for destroying palestinian infrastructure. Well, in case you didn't realize, the palestinians have never had much of an economy to begin with, they mostly rely on employment in Israel. Then you mention the contrast of the settlements, and the poverty in Palestinian areas. But whose fault is this? Are you aware of the billions of dollars that have been poured into those camps? Do you realize the full extent of corruption in the PLO and the PA? That Arafat is stinking rich, and that all their leaders take the money for themselves, while deliberately letting the people suffer as an international eyesore? Why are these people still living in camps? Why haven't better condition been made, why haven't more permanent and sanitary housing projects been undertaken? It is a choice. The arab countries refused to absorb the refugees in 1948, because they weren't willing to recognize the existence of Israel, and the refugees have been used as a human political weapon ever since (a national suicide bomb, if you will). They do indeed suffer- but if you actually cared, you'd place the blame where it is due. These people have been brainwashed and bred on hatred and jealousy, for 55 years. If you need a primer in what is going on now, I suggest you read the thread about the settlements, I was having a very interesting discussion with some people.
I do realize the economic gap, which you claim I overlook. I am saying that it exists, but that you have not dug deep enough into the history and reality of the events over there to understand what these problems really stem from. If you were intellectually honest, and actually knew some history, we could discuss this. But I will not waste my breath indefinitely shooting down ignorant statements, generalizations, false assumptions and lies.

05-15-2003, 06:11 PM	#10 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	You are merely spewing propaganda. You haven't stated any facts. I am aware of the UN record on Israel. That proves nothing. When it comes down to helping jews or getting oil contracts, there is usually no hesitation to ignore the truth. Why, to you, has Israel been singled out to the extent that is has been, while its neighbors engage in the most horrific human rights abuses anywhere in the world? And by the way, you say that Reuters said the camps were surrounded. That can mean a lot of things. As I said before, the IDF controlled the area. However, there was not a circle of Israeli soldiers standing in a circle around the village cheering as the massacre was taking place. That is ridiculous. They "surrounded" the village- meaning they controlled the area around it. No IDF soldier or officer participated in, or had foreknowledge of the event. You have conveniently dodged my points, facts that disprove what you are saying, like Sharon's case against Time magazine, which he won. I suppose the American justice system is overrun by a zionist conspiracy, right? The lebanese forces happened to be the personal forces of the Lebanese president. They were not some rag-tag militia, they were the soverign military force in the region. They were fighting the PLO, which had established a terrorist mini-state within Lebanon, and like I said before, committed horrific crimes against the Lebanese. When the IDF went into Lebanon, the lebanese threw flowers at them and greeted them as liberators. They felt abandoned after the war when Israel pulled out, and Syria moved in. You say Sharon doesn't want peace? Then what does he want? War? Why? Look at a map- Israel is surrounded by enemies, and takes up less than 1% of the land the arabs have. Since when do they have any choice but peace? Do you consider the palestinians as peace-loving, flexible and open minded liberals? Do you consider someone who straps a bomb to their body, packed with nails, screws, and rat poison, and gets on a bus filled with children and senior citizens, and blows themselves up, killing dozens of innocent people, in the belief that this will take him straight to paradise, where 70 virgins will be waiting for him, desperate? Do you feel sympathy for the bomber? Do you think that it's the settlements that gave him to choice but to do this? The Israelis do not target civilians. There are curfews, and other forms of military control of palestinians areas when repeated terror attacks come out of those areas. Palestinian gunmen often deliberately fire form inside building with children and other civilians in them, so that when the Israeli troops return fire, innocent people are killed. This, of course, creates more sympathy for the Palestinians. Oh, and you blame the Israelis for destroying palestinian infrastructure. Well, in case you didn't realize, the palestinians have never had much of an economy to begin with, they mostly rely on employment in Israel. Then you mention the contrast of the settlements, and the poverty in Palestinian areas. But whose fault is this? Are you aware of the billions of dollars that have been poured into those camps? Do you realize the full extent of corruption in the PLO and the PA? That Arafat is stinking rich, and that all their leaders take the money for themselves, while deliberately letting the people suffer as an international eyesore? Why are these people still living in camps? Why haven't better condition been made, why haven't more permanent and sanitary housing projects been undertaken? It is a choice. The arab countries refused to absorb the refugees in 1948, because they weren't willing to recognize the existence of Israel, and the refugees have been used as a human political weapon ever since (a national suicide bomb, if you will). They do indeed suffer- but if you actually cared, you'd place the blame where it is due. These people have been brainwashed and bred on hatred and jealousy, for 55 years. If you need a primer in what is going on now, I suggest you read the thread about the settlements, I was having a very interesting discussion with some people. I do realize the economic gap, which you claim I overlook. I am saying that it exists, but that you have not dug deep enough into the history and reality of the events over there to understand what these problems really stem from. If you were intellectually honest, and actually knew some history, we could discuss this. But I will not waste my breath indefinitely shooting down ignorant statements, generalizations, false assumptions and lies. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.