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Originally Posted by ObieX
The very simple fact is, the sanctions WERE WORKING. Saddam HAD NOTHING. Saddam's military was a joke. Bush and Co. simply DID NOT WANT Saddam there anymore. Thats the only rason for this invasion. Maybe the sanctions were due to expire soon and they didnt want Saddam in power when they did. The sanction were only supposed to be for 10 years correct? I think we were on year 12 right? I may be wrong but that seems to be the case as to why we actually went into Iraq.
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This thread is a symptom of, and a prime example of the psychological disorder
that has overtaken America. I am fascinated by the inability of contributors to
this forum to persuade "the other side" of anything that would signifigantly
lessen the distance between our points of view. This isn't new. The thing that is newer, is
using the internet to discuss issues and opinions. We now have a luxury
of offering links to sources of information on other websites that did not exist during other major national periods of division that I have
experienced in my adult lifetime. Two major divides that I recall are the
Vietnam war and the Carter "malaise".
Since I can find no rational basis for the signifigant numbers of people
offering unwavering and almost unquestioning support for Bush and his policies,
especially regarding his pronouncements and actions leading up to the invasion and continuing through today, I am starting a thread topic that
will examine the irrationality of the phenomena. Here's an example:
Quote:
<a href="http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf">http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf</a>
THE PIPA/KNOWLEDGE NETWORKS POLL.
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ON INTERNATIONAL ISSUES
--Media Release--
Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
Supported al Qaeda
Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case
Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda
Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
Favoring Bush Reelection
For Release: Thursday October 21, 2004, 9 am Contact: Steven Kull (202) 232-7500
College Park, MD: Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not
have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual
WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most
experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had
at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al
Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush
supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this
was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have
exactly opposite perceptions.
These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters,
conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls
conducted in September and October.
Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, “One of the reasons that Bush supporters have these beliefs is
that they perceive the Bush administration confirming them. Interestingly, this is one point on which
Bush and Kerry supporters agree.” Eighty-two percent of Bush supporters perceive the Bush
administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or that Iraq had a major WMD program (19%).
Likewise, 75% say that the Bush administration is saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al
Qaeda. Equally large majorities of Kerry supporters hear the Bush administration expressing these
views—73% say the Bush administration is saying Iraq had WMD (11% a major program) and 74% that
Iraq was substantially supporting al Qaeda.
Steven Kull adds, “Another reason that Bush supporters may hold to these beliefs is that they have not
accepted the idea that it does not matter whether Iraq had WMD or supported al Qaeda. Here too they
are in agreement with Kerry supporters.” Asked whether the US should have gone to war with Iraq if
-over-
US intelligence had concluded that Iraq was not making WMD or providing support to al Qaeda, 58% of
Bush supporters said the US should not have, and 61% assume that in this case the President would not
have. Kull continues, “To support the president and to accept that he took the US to war based on
mistaken assumptions likely creates substantial cognitive dissonance, and leads Bush supporters to
suppress awareness of unsettling information about prewar Iraq.”
This tendency of Bush supporters to ignore dissonant information extends to other realms as well.
Despite an abundance of evidence—including polls conducted by Gallup International in 38 countries,
and more recently by a consortium of leading newspapers in 10 major countries--only 31% of Bush
supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with
Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority
approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.
Similarly, 57% of Bush supporters assume that the majority of people in the world would favor Bush’s
reelection; 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be
preferred. A recent poll by GlobeScan and PIPA of 35 of the major countries around the world found
that in 30, a majority or plurality favored Kerry, while in just 3 Bush was favored. On average, Kerry
was preferred more than two to one.
Bush supporters also have numerous misperceptions about Bush’s international policy positions.
Majorities incorrectly assume that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international
issues—the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%)—and for
addressing the problem of global warming: 51% incorrectly assume he favors US participation in the
Kyoto treaty. After he denounced the International Criminal Court in the debates, the perception that he
favored it dropped from 66%, but still 53% continue to believe that he favors it. An overwhelming 74%
incorrectly assumes that he favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements. In
all these cases, majorities of Bush supporters favor the positions they impute to Bush. Kerry supporters
are much more accurate in their perceptions of his positions on these issues.
“The roots of the Bush supporters’ resistance to information,” according to Steven Kull, “very likely lie
in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush
showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his
supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine
that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical
of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his
supporters.”
The polls were conducted October 12-18 and September 3-7 and 8-12 with samples of 968, 798 and 959
respondents, respectively. Margins of error were 3.2 to 4% in the first and third surveys and 3.5% on
September 3-7. The poll was fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is
randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more
information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.
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Less than a month ago, Bush apparently cut Powell loose when he did not
hear the "correct" answer from his secretary of state. The motivation for
this thread seems to be for validation of Bush's disasterous policies through
claims that "things are going better" in Iraq, now! There is no reaction to
the loss of a comparatively level head in a top administration position,
I doubt that Bush's supporters perceive what is obvious to many of us.
1400 Americans and possibly many more have died fighting to facilitate the
formation of a fundamentalist Islamic republic in Iraq, a country that was
formerly a secular dictatorship with a highly educated population where
women enjoyed societal equality perhaps second only to that of women in
Israel.
I see nothing to indicate that the October Poll opinions of Bush supporters
have changed. They are as curiously (to me) uncoupled from reality as they
were four months ago.
Quote:
<a href="http://www.furl.net/item.jsp?id=1713205">http://www.furl.net/item.jsp?id=1713205</a>
According to Chas Freeman, former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia and head of the independent Middle East Policy Council, Mr Bush recently asked Mr Powell for his view on the progress of the war. "We're losing," Mr Powell was quoted as saying. Mr Freeman said Mr Bush then asked the secretary of state to leave.
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