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Old 02-03-2005, 09:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
Master_Shake
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
He paid people to build the factory, or bought it off someone else. Are you claiming that property rights of any kind are slavery?
No, it's not evil to protect the property you own. But when the only reason you own it is because you and your cronies got together and said: "Hey, why don't you take that land and take all the oil/wood/whatever out of it and use it. You'll make a pretense of paying a couple of bucks to the government for it's use, but since we're the government, you're just paying us! And we'll use that money to protect your property and build roads so that you can get the sheep to work in your new factory."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
The exploitation was a bad thing? Justify that. Go right ahead. You are better off because you where 'exploited'.
You assume that I could only get a job that pays .50. But if that fucker wasn't sitting there with his hand up his ass, claiming he owned the land because his friends gave it to him, why couldn't I make the $4 product? I am exploited because he took that opportunity away from me. It's not that he just thought of it first, it's because he used the government to ensure he would be the only one to make that product. I can't make some new drug because he's making it and the government protects him, and punishes me if I try to make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
So, you value labour, and labour only.
No, but I don't value people accumulating wealth AND THEN using the government to protect that wealth at my expense. New drugs, or the new windows, cost more because there are no alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
There is an alternative to Windows -- many of them even. Linux, *.BSD, Solaris. All of them are free. They are even set up in a way that someone can't use copywrite to 'steal' any work you contribute to it. People are free to use those operating systems, and the government won't shoot you for doing so.

At the same time, the lack of copyright and a lesser profit motive means that those operating systems don't have all the bells and whistles that Windows has. But they exist.
Right, so they are not the same thing. The government protects Bill's right to collect money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
The protection of creative works for a limited time is in the best interests of society as a whole.
I disagree. It stifles creativity and increases costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
You seem to ignore the value of capital. Bill Gates earned a fuckload of money way back when. He took this money and risked it on his own company. At that point, anyone could have risked their money on Microsoft, but Bill risked a metric fuckton. Capitalism rewards you when you make bets like that properly.
Bill's money would have been protected had he not risked anything, not due to capital, but due to government protections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
Capitalism simply concentrates wealth. If you have a bunch of people equally productive, and you add in some random chance, capitalism will concentrate wealth in a few of them. It is a side effect of a capitalist market.
Right, but how is Bill equally as productive as the poor fuck in India churning out code?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
Conspiracies are hard to keep quiet. Especially large ones involving the hiring practices of every company in the industrialized world.
It's not kept quiet! It's very clear. How much do you pay in taxes? That money is clearly taken from you to support the leviathan every damn week!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
Your position is that "the man keeps everyone down. Anyone who isn't down becomes part of the man. Thus, my statements are irrefuteable." Do I misunderstand you?

Unfalsifiable claims are weak, pointless and boring.
How is that unfalsifiable? Don't you pay taxes every week? Where do you think those taxes go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
Strange that. I could have sworn I owned my car. Hell, I could have sworn my landlord (who doesn't charge me enough rent, heh) owned his building. But, I guess, if you are taxed 1%, that makes you own 0%. =p
Is your car the means of production or distribution? I guess maybe you could make a claim that it's part of the distribution network, but ownership of your car is hardly enough to impact the entire economy.

And I'm not taxed 1%. I'm taxed at least 33% that I can easily verify. The rest is hard to pin down, admittedly, since I don't keep track of lowered wages, sales tax, tolls, high product premiums, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
There are 6 million square miles of arable land under cultivation. There are 6 billion people.

Your share is a packet of land 36 meters on a side. Bring along no tools of technology. I'm sure you could manage to buy this much land somewhere in Africa.
Why are you telling me what to do? Why have you determined what my "share" is? You don't sound any better than the mafia running this joint as it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
You believe the world would be better without them. Now, put up.
Put up what? I've already made it very clear that I'm a weak coward and won't follow through on any of this. Aren't I still allowed to disagree? If I'm not, that's fine, just let me know and I'll shut up. I don't want to cause any problems, I don't want to be killed, I find enough satisfaction in my alcohol and porn to get me through. But I'm not going to cheer for you (unless you force me to at gunpoint).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
I said insufficient economic incentive. I didn't say nobody would do it. Fewer people than there should be, in order to maximize everyone's well being, would be doing it.
Well, we will never know will we, since the government is going to ensure that doesn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
My location is on the left. 128$ fine, if they bother prosecuting, last I checked.
That actually makes sense. The pharmeceutical companies aren't lobbying Canada to keep the drugs artificially expensive, they're doing it in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
Look, it was stated that 'the government would 100$ of my money and build roads which would cost 1$ to build if it wasn't for the corruption.', or words to that extent.
I don't know how much the roads would cost, but would we need all of the roads if we didn't all have to go to soul-sucking jobs that help keep the man rich?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
One is a leach. The other an enabler. One is close to the best of all attempted worlds. The other is close to the worst.
So that's what you claim the difference is?

The mafia takes your money without your permission and spends it as it sees fit. The government does the same thing.

Both the mafia and the government throw a little back to the people it takes things from to prevent revolution or feelings of ill will.

Both threaten you with violence if you don't do what you're told.

Sorry, but aside from size I fail to see the fundamental difference.

What does the government enable you to do?
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