Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Aha!!!
So there is a line! And even you admit it!  |
Hahahaha. Yes! You got me! If an infant cannot muster the dextarity to vote, then why bother bringign them? They have that right, but they cannot explore it yet. They would have the right to vote, but they wouldn't have the ability. I'd say a 2 year4 old would have the edextarity, but not the need. They would no be able to sit in line for 6 hours like I did.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
So, like I said, the debate isn't about whether there should be a line or not (as we both agree there is), but where society should draw that line.
|
So, to clairify my point, everyone is given the right to vote from age 0 to infinity. But the younger kids would lack the dextarity, interest, and patience.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Nonesense. If I told a 14 year old cousin, "I'll let you have my X-box all weekend if you vote for Kerry", he would. That is, if we were in the US and 14 year olds could vote.
|
No one is talking about forcing them, but telling them, bribing them, convincing them. Because they don't understand the aspects and complexities of adult life, they are easily led astray. That's got a lot to do with "immaturity". [/QUOTE]
If a parent was bribing their kid to vote, that would be the same as buying a vote from an adult. If I offered the average 18 year old American male an X Box for their vote, they'd take it. You can't buy X Boxes for every 18 year old, so it doesn't really matter. You'd have to have organization the likes of which voters have never seen to have bribery work on a national level. I say no way Jose to that one.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
You're right. That's why people who are certifiably of "unsafe mind" are precluded from voting. Society assumes everyone above 18 is fine and everyone below 18 is not an adult. With adulthood come certain additional rights.
|
That means certification for minors to see which are of safe voting mind in order for it to be fair.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Because Western society deems those under 18 to be children, in the face of the law, and those over 18 to be adults. And voting is a right given to adult citizens. As I mentioned earlier, this is based upon generations of precedent and tradition.
|
I know it's based on tradition and "precedent". I'm not trying to change the law, remember? It's just a debate. No law changing allowed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
The franchise has changed in the past and it may change again. Once it was restricted to rich, male, white, Protestant property holders (in the UK). In the US millions of blacks were disenfranchised. In Australia the Aboriginals only got the vote (and citizenship rights) in the 1970's. Yes, you read that right. In the SEVENTIES.
|
Eek. Humans are so very evolved, aren't we!? Kinda scarey.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
If I lived in a country where an 18 month old girl could vote "if she want[ed]", then I would leave post haste.
|
Well, you'd always be welcome to return to Sesseme Street.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Your dodging the question. What if she brought home a boy (when she's 12) and said she wanted to have sex with him?
Would you let her "learn her own lessons" then?
I doubt it.
You restrict her actions because she is a child. You may not think you do, but you do.
Do you let her leave the house at night alone? Why not? Do you consider her a second-class member of your family?!!
What if she comes home with a t-shirt that says "I hate niggers"?
Or a KKK suit?
Or perhaps "I support the American Nazi Party"
Or how about, when she's... say 15, a stripper outfit?
So you'd let her spend her money on a litre of tequila?
|
I answered your questions directly. It is my job to teach my daughter how to interpret inate morality and how it applies to the real world. It is also my responsibility to teach her about consequences for her actions that can have a detremental effect on her life or the lives of others. It is my responsibility to teach her tolerance and love and peace (*puts on flower necklace and sings*). If she wants to have sex at 12, she'll know the consequences. I realize that I am not the only influence on her, so I make sure that between now and when other influences take my place, I have installed all of the mental and emotional technologies she needs to deal with the world and grow. If she wants to be a slut, or a nazi, or an alcoholic, I will consider that a failure on MY part. She will always have the freedom to make her own mistakes, and I will love her unconditionally. Nothing she does will ever change that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
She'[ll] probably have enough understanding...
That's the whole point! You can't be sure she will.
The parent? It's the responsibility of the state to ensure its children are not exposed to unnecessary dangers.
|
There will always be an X factor that we can't protect our kids from. I want her to be ready herself for that X factor when it comes along.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
You keep saying that some children are more mature than others.
What about parents?
What if one parent says "Well, I don't care about you, but MY child is old enough to drive a car and use a handgun. Even if he is only 8 years old".
By your standard, there's nothing to stop that from happening.
That's why there are laws to prevent it happening.
|
And that, my good fellow, is the potential flaw in the equasion. If it all started this way, if society started with all parents teaching this way, we wouldn't have to worry about that. This is still about voting, though. As far as the whole picture, that is a flaw, but voting does not come with a handgun. Unless you're in a red state. Heh.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Not at all. A subvertion of democracy could put entire NATIONS in danger.
You think children should be allowed to buy property?!
Anyway, I don't agree that voting and property rights don't belong in that list. I think they do.
|
Children cannot gather the capitol to buy property (unless they are very mature...heh), so problem solved.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Because you can't base voting rights on case by case examinations. That's not realistic. Also, perhaps my use of the word "mature" is confusing things. Kids can't vote because they're not adults.
|
Not maturity..hmmm....What is this magical thing that adults have that children don't? All I can think of is experience. The only reason children don't have experience with voting is because it is not available to them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Yep, that's right.
Why? Because he was an adult and you were not.
|
But he is just as likely to be irresponsible and vote for the next dictator as any child. Whether it is for different reasons or not is moot, as the result would be the same.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
No, it's a consistent standard. That's the whole point. Applied consistently across the entire population, it may result in some rare cases where people feel restricted, but such is life.
Great discussion indeed.
Mr Mephisto |
Maybe that's the answer. Complete consistancy of freedom is unattainable. That's kinda sad though.
King's to you.