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Originally Posted by willravel
Rememebr when I wrote "I am suggesting that it might be interesting to look into the possibility to give the right to vote to anyone who can check a box."? That discounts infants. They can't hold a pencil. Also, most young kids wouldn't be interested in voting, so that discounts the "Barney" vote.
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Aha!!!
So there
is a line! And even you admit it!
So, like I said, the debate isn't about whether there should be a line or not (as we both agree there is), but where society should draw that line.
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Do you have kids? I coached t-ball and hockey for kintegardners for YEARS (community service to get into a private college, I'm not a pedaphile or anything). They listen when they want to listen. You cannot force a child to do anything unless you physically force them.
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Nonesense. If I told a 14 year old cousin, "I'll let you have my X-box all weekend if you vote for Kerry", he would. That is, if we were in the US and 14 year olds could vote.
Ditto to 8 years olds "Mommy will buy you a big bag of candy"
No one is talking about forcing them, but telling them, bribing them, convincing them. Because they don't understand the aspects and complexities of adult life, they are easily led astray. That's got a lot to do with "immaturity".
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If you are their parent, teacher, pastor, or any authority figure, they follow their own mind. I never did anything my parents told me to do. That at least partially invalidates your argument.
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Not at all.
I didn't do everything my parents told me to do, but I certainly did a great deal. And if we're opening up voting to millions of children, if only 50% of them do what their parents ask, tell or bribe them to do, then we have subverted democracy to an astounding amount. Bush didn't win by
that much...
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Neither can senile people. And they are usually older.
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You're right. That's why people who are certifiably of "unsafe mind" are precluded from voting. Society assumes everyone above 18 is fine and everyone below 18 is not an adult. With adulthood come certain additional rights.
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The line, in my opinion, would be anyone who doesnt want to vote. Kids who are really little would rather be outside playing.
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How do you know? And more importantly, what kids? Kids of 4 or younger? 6 or younger? 10 or younger?
Where do you draw the line (now that you accept a line should be drawn)? And what makes
YOUR line any more appropriate than the line already drawn?
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Why does voting have to be a gift for becoming an adult? I know that the law states that 18 and older to vote. I'm not trying to change the law! I'm trying to explore the reason behind the law.
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Because Western society deems those under 18 to be children, in the face of the law, and those over 18 to be adults. And voting is a right given to
adult citizens. As I mentioned earlier, this is based upon generations of precedent and tradition.
The franchise has changed in the past and it may change again. Once it was restricted to rich, male, white, Protestant property holders (in the UK). In the US millions of blacks were disenfranchised. In Australia the Aboriginals only got the vote (and citizenship rights) in the 1970's. Yes, you read that right. In the
SEVENTIES.
So who knows? It may change again in the future, but I don't see any value. Going below 18 introduces potential voters that are patently not as mature or adult as those older. Most mental development has finished by that stage.
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THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING! Welcome!
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haha
Touché!
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I'm the proud father of an 18 month old girl. And she can vote if she wants, but I think she's more interested in stuffed toys.
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If I lived in a country where an 18 month old girl could vote "if she want[ed]", then I would leave post haste.
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We are starting to let her make her clothing decisions. She automatically goes to sleep at 7:00 pm every night. I can set my clock by her. BUT, if she wanted to stay up, I'd let her learn when it was best to go to sleep. We own out house.
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Your dodging the question. What if she brought home a boy (when she's 12) and said she wanted to have sex with him?
Would you let her "learn her own lessons" then?
I doubt it.
You restrict her actions because she is a child. You may not think you do, but you do.
Do you let her leave the house at night alone? Why not? Do you consider her a second-class member of your family?!!
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When my daughter is old enough to choose clothers, they will be her choice (limited only by budget).
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What if she comes home with a t-shirt that says "I hate niggers"?
Or a KKK suit?
Or perhaps "I support the American Nazi Party"
Or how about, when she's... say 15, a stripper outfit?
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She will always have a say in finances if she wants, but I still doubt she'll be interested.
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So you'd let her spend her money on a litre of tequila?
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When she starts becoming interested in the household finances, she'll probably have enough understanding to make decent decisions.
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She's
probably have enough understanding...
That's the whole point! You can't be sure she will.
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It is the responsibility of the parent to teach the child how to deal with the realitty of the world. That includes weapons, cars, and the armed forces.
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The parent? It's the responsibility of the state to ensure its children are not exposed to unnecessary dangers.
You keep saying that some children are more mature than others.
What about parents?
What if one parent says "Well, I don't care about you, but
MY child is old enough to drive a car and use a handgun. Even if he is only 8 years old".
By your standard, there's nothing to stop that from happening.
That's why there are laws to prevent it happening.
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Each of those involves something voting doesn't: each involves a direct connection with mortal danger. A vote will not directly put you in mortal danger. Granted, someone you vote for could put you in danger, but I think we both know that's different.
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Not at all. A subvertion of democracy could put entire NATIONS in danger.
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Purchasing property and voting don't belong in that group. "One of these things is not like the other".
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You think children should be allowed to buy property?!
Anyway, I don't agree that voting and property rights don't belong in that list. I think they do.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you throw open the floodgates or you do not.
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What about the exceptions? If kids can't vote because they are not mature, why are immature adults allowd to vote?
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Because you can't base voting rights on case by case examinations. That's not realistic.
Also, perhaps my use of the word "mature" is confusing things. Kids can't vote because they're not adults.
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It's a double standard. The 34 year old man who lives in his mom's basement and has never heald down a full time job and who is mooching off the government and his mother for money can vote, but I couldn't vote when I was 17 (and was VERY active in politics)?
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Yep, that's right.
Why? Because he was an adult and you were not.
No, it's a
consistent standard. That's the whole point. Applied consistently across the entire population, it may result in some rare cases where people feel restricted, but such is life.
Great discussion indeed.
Mr Mephisto