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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Because I was basing my statement on the belief that you were not suggesting infants should be allowed to vote. That's just silly and you know it.
If an infant, unable to talk properly, unable to relate to the world around them, should be allowed to vote because they "can check a box" then you are living in a fantasy world.
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Rememebr when I wrote "I am suggesting that it might be interesting to look into the possibility to give the right to vote to anyone who can check a box."? That discounts infants. They can't hold a pencil. Also, most young kids wouldn't be interested in voting, so that discounts the "Barney" vote.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
That would mean parents could simply tell their children where to vote.
That, in turn, would subvert democracy.
That, in turn, is something I'm sure you're not supporting.
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Do you have kids? I coached t-ball and hockey for kintegardners for YEARS (community service to get into a private college, I'm not a pedaphile or anything). They listen when they want to listen. You cannot force a child to do anything unless you physically force them. If you are their parent, teacher, pastor, or any authority figure, they follow their own mind. I never did anything my parents told me to do. That at least partially invalidates your argument.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Therefore, we know there has to be line drawn somewhere. Because failure to draw that line results in unsafe results. Infants cannot make those judgements.
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Neither can senile people. And they are usually older.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Once we have accepted the fact that a line is required, the only remaining issue is where that line be drawn; at what age should voting be permitted. As I said, Western society has evolved such that 18 is considered the normal stage when children are welcomed into adulthood. I have accepted that there are exceptions, but laws and rules cannot be based upon a case by case basis. A systematic, repeatable, consistent, definable solution is required. These are generally known as "laws" and, in this case, the law states that a person must be 18 or over to vote.
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The line, in my opinion, would be anyone who doesnt want to vote. Kids who are really little would rather be outside playing. Why does voting have to be a gift for becoming an adult? I know that the law states that 18 and older to vote. I'm not trying to change the law! I'm trying to explore the reason behind the law.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Now, you can argue the philosophical basis upon which those laws are based if you wish.
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THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING! Welcome!
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
The same way I can argue against society's assumption that I should wear clothes. But it doesn't change the fact that said laws (voting laws) are based upon generations of precedent, tradition and (recently) scientific fact.
Children mature during their teens. This has been proven. Please don't ask me to search the web for references, as I'm unwilling to believe you don't accept that. Therefore, a teen (statistically speaking) of 18 years age will be more mature than a teen of 17 years age. Indeed, a 21 year old will probably be more mature again. But we have moved away from 21 as the age of maturity to 18. And I don't see the benefit of going any younger.
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That's cool. In a perfect world everyone under 18 would be too imature to vote for themselves, and people over 18 would all be mature enough to make a rational decision in voting. This is no perfect world.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Are you a father?
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I'm the proud father of an 18 month old girl. And she can vote if she wants, but I think she's more interested in stuffed toys.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Do you let your child decide what the family is going to do every day?
Do you let your child decide what car you're going to buy?
Do you let your child decide what time you are to go to bed?
Do you let your child decide how much to spend on your mortgage?
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We are starting to let her make her clothing decisions. She automatically goes to sleep at 7:00 pm every night. I can set my clock by her. BUT, if she wanted to stay up, I'd let her learn when it was best to go to sleep. We own out house.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
We all know the answers to these questions. The answer is no. Or the answer would be no (if you're not a father). Does that make your child a second class citizen? No.
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When my daughter is old enough to choose clothers, they will be her choice (limited only by budget). She will always have a say in finances if she wants, but I still doubt she'll be interested. When she starts becoming interested in the household finances, she'll probably have enough understanding to make decent decisions.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Do we let children buy weapons? No. Does that make them second class citizens? No.
Do we let children drive cars? No. Does that make them second class citizens? No.
Do we let children join the armed forces and fight in armed conflicts? No. Does that make them second class citizens? No.
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It is the responsibility of the parent to teach the child how to deal with the realitty of the world. That includes weapons, cars, and the armed forces. Each of those involves something voting doesn't: each involves a direct connection with mortal danger. A vote will not directly put you in mortal danger. Granted, someone you vote for could put you in danger, but I think we both know that's different.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Again, you get the picture.
Many "rights" are limited to those of a certain age. Driving. Purchasing weapons. Joining the military. Purchasing property. Voting.
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Purchasing property and voting don't belong in that group. "One of these things is not like the other".
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
It is not one of my prerequisites. It is a fact that children mature. Therefore, society has deemed a certain level of maturity is required.
The fact that the US executes mentally handicapped people is beside the point. It's one of only a handful of countries that do. You're up there with you friends China and Iran. Good for you.
With regards to the question on whether mentally handicapped persons are allowed to vote, I don't believe they are. I'm not certain of US law however. This just goes to show that certain rights can be with-held.
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I was trying to point out that people who are not "mature" can be victems of this countries sick capitol punsiment. it is hypocritical (not to mention morally reprehensible) to be able to execute someone who doesn't even have basic rights.
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Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
As I said above, if you don't believe me that children are less mature than adults please do your own google. I'm not going to waste time on such a ridiculous assertion.
And I said, statistically and ontogenologically speaking, children are less mature. You want proof? You really don't believe that?
Let's see how comfortable you would feel sending 14 year olds over to Iraq. How about letting 12 year olds on the roads. While we're at it, let's hand over responsibility for America's nuclear arsenal to 16 year olds. Let's make sure your bank manager's job is open to 8 year olds.
I hope I have.
Mr Mephisto
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What about the exceptions? If kids can't vote because they are not mature, why are immature adults allowd to vote? It's a double standard. The 34 year old man who lives in his mom's basement and has never heald down a full time job and who is mooching off the government and his mother for money can vote, but I couldn't vote when I was 17 (and was VERY active in politics)? It is a double standard.