Zeld2.0

Mojo: You do realize that the Catholic Church over the recent decades has tried to distance itself from association with the Nazi's? There have been numerous documents revealed in recent years about their associations (such as messages between Pius and Hitler) - indeed, Pope John Paul II has done much of his work as the Pope in mending religious relationships.

And you do realize that half your arguments just support the fact that its not the religion (in this case, Islam) that affects how governments are run - it is the fact that this happens to every religion but it mainly concerns how they are run which ends in result.

Countries with a majority of Christians - even deeply religious ones - have fallen to dictatorships. So have Islamic ones. So have ones in Asia in their various religions. Some have been butchers of their own people (i dont get where the idea that a religion has to support is own people all the time - indeed, Christians have fought with one another in Europe for nearly as long as Christianity has been around), others have not.

Maybe I should restate my point - be it Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, whatever, there have been similar results that lead me to believe its not a matter of religion, its a matter of people and the type of government set up.

For instance, secular Islamic countries have had mixed features:
a) Turkey - secular - one of the most pro-Western countries in the Middle East. Member of NATO and trying to apply for the EU - very close ally of the U.S. - other than the ethnicity and religion, its features would be nearly identical to any other Western democratic nation.
b) Iraq - secular - before the 91 Gulf War, it had long been supported by Western nations as a buffer against radical Islam - it, however, had a butcherous dictator for a leader.
c) Jordan - secular - ruled by the Hussein family (direct descendents of Muhammad iirc), it is ruled by the monarchy but it is a country that has been under the rule of good leaders. Indeed, the advances in literacy, health, and other conditions during the reign of the late King Hussein are considered one of the most remarkable in the Middle East. In fact, during his funeral in 1999, it was one of the most amazing things to see both radical Islamists as well as western dignitaries stand side to side to honor King Hussein - you had Clinton, Bush, Carter, Ford there along with Tony Blair, Prince Charles, Chirac, Schroder, and others there along side Araft, Syrian President Al-Assad, even Qadaffi's son. Hell, old Boris Yeltsin made the trip despite poor health.
d) Pakistan - ruled by a military dictator, but has made its moves towards democratic reforms. Typically neutral with the U.S. due to the situation between India and Pakistan - this is the second largest Muslim country in the world (first being Indonesia) but has none of the supposed features of a repressive country of death.

Indeed, this shows these countries with a nearly 100% Islamic population have had their mix of butcherous dictators as well as democracy and authoritarian leaders that have done good. You can put in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other countries where appropriate.

Then you can look at countries that have (or had) religious governments - places like Iran and Afghanistan and you can see their share of rotten apples - though it is of note that many of these happen to be the governments where religion is mixed in.

Indeed, looking at Christian/Western countries, you see similar patterns.

Lets see:

a) Argentina - it has a secular government, but it has been home to some dictators - remember Peron? Or how about the military juntas in the 70's and 80's that happened to call for the invasion of the Falkland Islands? Oh yeah, their country is overwhelmingly Christian (Roman Catholic to be exact).
b) Chile - secular government, but hey, remember Pinochet? The immediate aftermath of his takeover was 3000 executed as well as 27000 suddenly disappearing off the face of the Earth. Martial law in the country, mmmm, fun.
c) Spain - hey lets not forget Franco! Once sided with the Nazi's and Fascists to overthrow a democratic republic. Hell he ruled til the 70's and allowed the restoration of the monarchy. Ruled with an iron fist in Europe but largely ignored due to his anti-communist stance. Spain is as Christian as they get.

As you can see, Christian countries have had their own problems and thats not even counting countries like Italy and Germany where Christianity is the overwhelming majority, governments were called secular, but were mass murderers, dictators, totalitarians.

The one difference is that in most countries where Christianity is the top religion, the separation of state and religion is known and exists. I suppose thousands of years of history with such situations as the Inquistion, wars between Orthodox and Catholics, later Protestants, the influence of the Pope on politics, and other things have taught them to keep religion out of state. Islam hasn't found that in many of its countries yet (Iran, previously Afghanistan) and that has led to great oppression of ideas and people.

Indeed, since I vehemently oppose religion with state, I think they do need things to change.

But again, I contend with the idea that Islam is the root of the problem. It is not - its religion put in with government and ruling through that context that problems arrive. Religion is a powerful force - if you are a believer in religion, and there is the use of religion to tell people what to do, it becomes a powerful tool for those in powers. That of course is just part of it, but that is probably why it is so common for oppressive tactics to be used in non-secular countries.

Indeed look at the history of the world and you will see that what religion the country is doesnt matter - oppression and butcherous leaders are to be found there. Do you forget Pol Pot and the killing fields of Southeast Asia? Now there was one sick SOB with pictures taken of those who are about to be dead and the hills of human skulls. Do you forget Stalin and how he killed his own people? Do you forget Hitler? Do you forget Mao and the communists in China, who killed my great grandmother simply because she owned land? And that is only in recent history - shall we go further back and look at butchers in history? I dont forget these things happen in many countries of all religions and government types.

But you know what? I mean believe as you wish - these are things I have learned in my own studies and travels abroad. I have unfortunately witnessed my own share of problems and feelings (try taking a tour of some concentration camps like Auschwitz... your life will never be the same... its as though the stench of death has never left the place) and to each their own I guess.