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Originally Posted by Zeld2.0
You are entitled to your opinion but the short term looking is quite bad.
You do realize that the religion itself hasn't been the problem - its each government dealing with it in its own terms.
For instance, the issue of women - in some countries, where government is much more secular, women are given great rights. Turkey, Jordan (believe it or not), and Iraq (yes, indeed) have long given women great rights. Countries where radical religion (Islam in this case) have often been the violators of their rights. And this has been true in supposedly "Christian" countries too - do you forget that women weren't allowed to vote til the 1920's in the US? Do you forget that women were once treated as property, rarely given jobs (and if so, at the worst of wages and in worst conditions) for a long time in our own history (which is but a fraction in world history)? The only difference is that we have advanced, but thats something you have to take by one case at a time - some "Western" nations are more liberal (funny that women's rights is a liberal issue but is used by the right in their arguments against Islam) in the feminist movement, others are not. There are women in our own country against those rights, just as there are those fervently in advancing their rights.
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Point in case we have advanced, they haven't, a woman tries to read she gets stoned. And has you said yourself those countries governments are largely secular and very tough at that, they don't play around.
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Your next issue of intellectual development - do you seem to forget your history? The Eastern World has long been more advanced than the Western World. China for instance has long been the area of its greatest technological advance - compasses, paper, gunpowder (the big ones we all know of) has long been at the forefront in humanity's development of technology.
Indeed, until the 1500's, the Muslim world was superior in technology and intellectual developments to the European/Christian world. Remember the Crusades and Richard the Lionheart? When he was wounded, Saladin sent his personal physicians to treat him - a testament to how medical techniques in the eastern world were superior to European methods. Indeed, the Crusades and Mongol Invasions finally brought much of the technology to Europe at last - papermaking, gunpowder, hell even the game of Chess.
You can note however that in the 1500s, with the Rennaissance, and the beginnings of European colonization (the geographical location of Europe is big here), the shift in technology and power moved towards Europe - Europe and the US really broke away with the Industrial Revolution (which may not have come about with the power and resources via imperialism).
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Again you made the point, we have advanced, they haven't since the 1500's.
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Repressive nature in Christian countries? Do you seem to forget the Soviet Union (or are they un-Christian heathens despite the fact many are Eastern Orthodox, etc.?), Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and other nations in the last 100 years have often had a majority of Christians in the country? Of which many of its people were willing to follow?
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Well let's see the people in Russia were othrodox, but the government was Communist, Stalin shipped Catholics and Jews to the gulags, he displaced the entire population of Chechyna who were Muslims, hell he even had shut down the Orthodox churches until the Nazi invasion so the people would rally. Nazi Germany was not Christian, National socialism seeked to subdue and replace the all religion, I just read an interesting article on MSN about how Hitler had plans to Kidnap the pope and take the Vatican, nothing similar to anything in the Muslim world.
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Hmm, next issue, you talk about regimes and their idealogues of hate and the lack of support against the terrorists of 9/11. Here's some thought - provide the quotes, the people who said em, and what nation they are from. I bet a lot of those are enemies of the U.S. from past events (Iraq), or are of radical religious governments like Iran, and previously Afghanistan. Furthermore, why must nations come out and make a statement - many nations dont give a rats ass about problems when they have their own. I dont see people asking for many countries in Africa to issue a formal statement about 9/11 and most don't care either.
Its as though one expects teh entire world to send their condolences when those very own countries have their own issues and problems to deal with. How many in America cared when the trains in Spain were bombed? It was on the news and it was off within a week.
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I do expect nations to offer formal notices of condolences in light of a massive tragedy like 9-11, I also expect governments to come out and condemn said actions when you got there citizens taking to the streets cheering.
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Why do leaderships in Islamic countires end up in corrupt dictators? Here's a thought - look up the leaders of the countries in the world. Most, believe it or not, are authoritarian in nature. Corrupt dictators? Remember this quote? "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Hmm, let me see, last I saw, in Cuba they have a dictator, in Argentina they had many military juntas and dictators, Chile, Brazil, all within the last 50-100 (even 20) years. And hey, almost all those countries are 100% Christian!
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Does the name Romero mean anything to you?
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The type of religion does not equate to the rise of dictatorships. "Christian" nations have created some brutal dictators in the past - hey, there was Napoleon - hello Mussolini, hello Hitler!
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Again, I am always perplexed when people try and mention Hitler and Nazi Germany as an example of a Christian country, there is no parallel between Hitler and Germany as a Christian country compared to a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran as a Muslim. Hitler persecuted Christians, do you know what happened to the Poles? Hitler seeked to completely remove religion, his notion was exactly like Communism, it was all about the state, religion was the biggest obstacle, if anything Christianity was the obstacle.
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What does matter is when religion is brought into the government - it creates the big problems. Those Islamic countries with the biggest beef with the U.S. have been those with religious government nature - they often treat women like 2nd class citizens, they often support terrorist actions. Those who have secular governments more or less have been supportive or at least neutral with the U.S. Hell, Turkey is most certainly a Muslim country, but guess what - its been in NATO, is applying for the EU, and other than its people, has little if any semblance to your typical idea of the Muslim country.
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Ok, what's your point, the people realize the necessity for said secular government, that's why the government is established as such. Same could've been said about Lebanon until the Muslims tried to grab power and the PLO moved in.
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Type of religion doesn't determine how a country is run be it democratic or authoritarian - its the difference between religion being used to influence politics (or in some cases, control it) and those who don't allow religion in their politics.
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I think it does. Outside of the few secular governments, who btw are not very democratic (at best limited democracies) or free at all, how does the Muslim world stack up to countries that have been fostered in the Judeo-Christian philosophy... leaps and bounds my friend, there is no comparison.
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There is a big reason why I want religion and government separated fully - its because when religion is put in a government, one answers only to what one believes in religion, and no longer to the people who run the government (in democracies, that would be people). Thats when it gets dangerous.
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I agree in that I don't think religious leaders should be allowed to rule a country.
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Before you call others ignorant of the issue, why dont you look deep into their history and study it first before you decide others don't have a clue about the situation. There are people out there who have dedicated their lives to studying geopolitical situations and how history affects us today - it would do well if you followed that before deciding others don't have a clue.
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I didn't call them ignorant of the issues, I said some are willingly ignorant, cutting their nose to spite their faces, in regards to just how undemocratic, unamerican, pro-terrorist the Muslim world really is. History can be taken into account and give answers about the reality, but it shouldn't be used as justification or as an apologist perspective as you try and make it.