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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan
Mr. Mephisto:
My response did not directly deal with the issue of defensive carry, it was a thrust towards the heart of our Second Amendment: the guarantee that we Americans would always be able to do what your countrymen so nobly did in 1916 and 1920-21. Ireland has no violent-crime problem to speak of outside Dublin, so the Defensive-Carry arguement does not much apply to your country. However, it was observation while I was there that a similar sort of citizen-based deterrance is practiced in most areas: car-theives have an inconveniant tendancy to end up with both legs broken, for instance. That seems to work admirably for your country; keep it up!
I greatly admire the Gardai for their unarmed position: when I was in Ireland several years ago it was one of the things that most impressed me about your country, which in many aspects is freer than my own. However, it was my observation that a great many "pikes in the thatch" were still around, and that many an "old Fenian gun" was still to be found if one knew who to talk to. One old gentleman on the train from Limerick to Dublin quite proudly told me that the old Mauser in his bedroom wall was staying right where it was, "just in case." Perhaps he was taking the micky out on me, but I doubt it. This old fellow had a look in his eyes that said that he was all steel behind his wrinkles and checked cap.
As I've said, your countrymen have a far less crime-prone society than we do: in large part due to cultural homogenity, small population, and a tightly-knit system of informal social controls which results in swift community-based punishments ( like car-theives getting their legs broken. ) You have an entirely different set of day-to-day realities than we do here in the States. That being said, however, my original point was that you also have a much more recent history of armed struggle than we do, and that it is for such events that we Americans maintain our right to keep arms.
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Dunedan,
Thanks for your well thought out response.
First let me preface my response with the fact that I was simply stating an opinion on the fact that I don't believe ordinary citizens need to carry guns. I appreciate your country is different from mine, so I know the "right to bear arms" will almost certainly never be rescinded. That doesn't obviate the fact that I don't believe such a right is "inalienable" or fundamental.
With regards to the specifics of Ireland and your example of car thieves, I think you are mistaken. In some highcrime areas of Ireland, Sinn Fein (the political wing of the Provisional IRA), have been known to organize vigilante "punishment beatings" or "punishment shootings". The
vast majority of these are very localized in one or two suburbs and almost all aimed at drug dealers. I have never heard of a car thief being dealt "hard justice" in Dublin by the PIRA or at the behest of Sinn Fein. In the late 80's and 90's there were some exceptions, which were again aimed at drug dealers, and the authorities very quickly stepped in to deal with this. To consider it common or typical would be akin to me thinking that all Americans go to the Mafia Don and ask for justice, a la the scene in the famous film the Godfather. It might make a good story, but it's not indicative of fact.
With regards to the Old Man and His Mauser, you can rest assured you were almost certainly told a tall tale; something the Irish are famous for. Undoubtedly there are still some old rifles lying about, the same way there are some old Civil War muskets in American attics. Again, it's a bit naive to consider this as typical of Irish society. I warrant a guess that these old Mausers number less than 100 in all the Republic.
We do have a problem with arms in the hands of paramilitaries. Indeed, the failure to publicly dispose of these, with photographic verification, was resulted in the failure of the latest develoments in Ireland's Peace Process. That along with the IRA's recent multi-million dollar bank robbery in Northern Ireland.
Dublin, and some parts of Ireland, does have a problem with organized crime. You may have heard of Veronica Guerin, a famous Irish journalist who was murdered due to her ongoing revelations of their drug dealing activities. It was recently made into a Hollywood film staring Cate Blanchett. Again, the fact that we have a few career criminals (who sometimes resort to gun-related violence) does not make Ireland any different from any other nation on Earth. In 1999 we had a grand total of 12 homicides with fire-arms. Not that high a number.
So, in summary, the opinions I posted were (by definition) personal. I don't expect to change the minds of any gun-lovers. I simply commented on the way people's backgrounds cause them to believe different things. A rather obvious statement I agree, but one made none the less. Car thieves do not get their legs broken in Ireland, or Dublin for that matter, any more than the Mafia runs the justice system of the United States. And old men on trains who tell you they have a Mauser from the Irish War of Independence are probably spinning a yarn. They would have to have been in their 90's for starters.
Mr Mephisto