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Originally Posted by pan6467
Who's getting richer and smarter overseas? The Chinese in labor camps? The children in sweatshops? The Indonesians that work and make just enough for food? Who's getting richer overseas? The workers who can't afford the very goods they make?
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Yes, the Chinese are getting richer and smarter.
Yes, the Indonesians who work and make just enough for food are getting richer and smarter. Before they had the job, they didn't have enough for food. Their children probably have far less malnutrition problems than their parents.
The workers who can't afford the very goods they make? Mate,
I can't afford the all the goods I make. My company sells some things that are worth more than my net worth.
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No, it's the business owners turning their backs on their own country and the country overseas (CHINA) that increases their trade surplus and buys up more of our debt so that we are working for the country that is supposedly wanting to destroy us.
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US policy towards China is to encourage openness, economic freedom, and political loosening. The goal is to make China realize that it is better for it to be a free nation than a tolatarian regeme. For everyone, from the poorest worker to the most powerful person in China.
I don't know if it will work, but...
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I see so it is ok to not have manufacturing jobs that pay decent wages and increase the tax base there by relieving the tax burden from the rich. (Which of course you did not address.)
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The value of a manufacturing job is based off the value of what you manufacture, and off how hard it is to find labourers to do the manufacturing, in a large circle.
What you are describing is welfare. Holding up the prices of goods in order to increase the pay of various jobs. It is wasteful.
The details of where tax comes from are relatively unimportant. It does cause inefficiencies and problems, but it is far less important than having an efficient market.
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So it is ok for someone with that college degree (at most only 30% of the work force at any given time will hold a college degree and that # is the highest we have ever had, with no taxes coming in to help, and low paying jobs that number will greatly decrease) working at McDonald's, 7-11, whatever for low end wages, no insurance, where a tax burden of any kind affects their livelihoods, but to work in a factory is beneath them, for decent wages, wages that make them feel like they are part of the system and not abused by the system, wages that allow them to pay taxes and yet still have enough to live nicely without being in major debt?
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Sure, they can work in a factory, if they would be useful there. But what you are describing isn't someone being useful in a factory -- you are describing putting up large trade barriers and lowering the US standard of living in order to increase US demand for menial labour jobs. It is simply evil.
The USA needs to gear up it's education system. Only 30% of the population having college degrees is a waste, and if the best thing someone with a college degree can figure out to do is work at McDonalds then they wasted their educational oppurtunity.
What do you mean by 'live nicely' -- do you mean relatively, or absolutely? It is pretty darn easy to live at the standards of an average someone in 1940 -- no TV, no fridge, tightly packed into a small building, very little disposable income. If you inflate prices on goods so much that it makes sense to pay large numbers of menial laborers to make them a wage high enough to live well relative to the rest of socieity, then what you'll do is drag everyone else down.
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And what of the 70% that do not hold any college or even HS degrees? Is it "fuck you, you don't deserve decent waged jobs"? That makes sense tell 70% of the poulation that they have to work low wage jobs.
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They should go learn something. Pick up a trade, there is a large shortage of tradesfolk. Failing that, fix the American welfare system so it supports entering a career.
[quote["I have networked, cold-called, and sent mass mailings," said Deane, 26. "I will take anything -- interesting or not -- as long as I can have a decent salary and health insurance. I know the economy is tough, but I think something else is happening for people in my age bracket."[/quote]
There it is. People are massively sensative to downward inflationary pressure.
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How is having manufacturing good paying jobs a "sick welfare system" that does not have productive jobs? People feel better and feel more part of society when they create, working manufacturing jobs is creating something.
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No, you are not just 'having' them, you want to empoverish the entire country in order to make them. If you are going to have a welfare system, don't be dishonest about it. Your goal should be to get people out of inefficient jobs and into productive ones -- what you are describing is skewing the economy so that old, inefficient jobs are always there, so people can feel good about themselves.
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So you would rather we continue our massive trade deficits, increase the tax burden on the rich, keep lower wage service jobs coming, inthe name of this monster capitalism that has become the excuse for greed?
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Massive trade deficits aren't going to continue. Not forever.
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You took my "comparable prices" and made it 1/10th.... gee 1/10th isn't that comparable is it? But New Balance is proving to be a wrench in the system isn't it? Proving a shoe costing relatively the same made in the US CAN sell as well?
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Um, the labour costs for menial labour in North America really are that high.
Now, most of the costs for "fashon" goods in North America do come from marketing rather than labour/raw materials.
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By the way manufacturing jobs create far more than just decent wages...... their own tax base, little mom and pop shops close to the factory, people who work and save and buy their own businesses, or are able to save for Johnny and Julie's college, etc etc etc. What do Wal*Mart Jobs and low wage earning jobs offer? Information jobs don't create a tax base, they may pay a tad more BUT even they are going overseas.
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You don't think information tech jobs don't have people who spend money on mom and pop shops? Save for college? People who buy their own businesses?
Don't shop at Wal*Mart. It is your choice. I have consciously chose not to buy goods from them, possibly for other reasons than you, but it is your choice. Possibly you'll have to move in order to get away from your Wal*Mart. Possibly you'll have to plan your life around having that kind of freedom.
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Capitalism in my mind is creating decent paying jobs so that people do not have to go into debt, level trade between countries (where one doesn't subsidize it's steel, while taxing imported outrageously, with the mission to destroy another countries industry (which China and Japan are doing to us, yet we still send jobs to China because they are so great.)
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Um, in case you haven't noticed, the USA is hitting everyone with illegal steel tarrifs. The steel fight is over buying votes, just another bribe to a special interest.
Capitalism is about making the economy efficient. Making people happy is another problem.
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Capitalism in my mind is developing decent waged, decent benefitted jobs to keep your tax base more level and not heavily burdened on one end.
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Who is heavily burdened by taxes in the USA?
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It boggles my mind how people can cry the rich pay too much in taxes and yet refuse to increase the tax base.... that's just greed pure and simple.
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/shrug, complain to someone who thinks the rich in the USA pay too much in taxes. I avoided buying into that bit of propganda. =)
You are describing a massive income redistribution, by having the government manipulate the economy, and generate inefficiencies and waste. It is my opinion that if you want to do social welfare, do social welfare. Don't be a pussy-footer.